Was Nu Guns a really toxic environment?

[Slugworth]

8 hours ago, Blackstar said:

According to Sean Beavan, it was Jimmy Iovine's idea. He convinced Axl that it would be cool.

Yeah it was cool alright. 

 

Stone cold dead on arrival.

 

 

7 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

I'm not sure whose idea RTB was. But he certainly didn't seem to help the process. The best "inside baseball" article I can recall is the one featuring Tom Zutaut, who came aboard in 2001 after RTB was already involved. He tells the story of how Axl had been asking RTB for 6 months to get the drums on one track to sound like Smells Like Teen Spirit and they couldn't get it right. So Zutaut stepped out, bought a copy of Nevermind, brought it back and played it for them. Problem solved. Or how they were spending $75,000 a month renting gear that hadn't been touched for 3 years. Nobody thought to return it until Zutaut got there. Situations like that, there's plenty of blame to go around. It shows the label had no clue what they were doing and the producer was there just to collect a check.

The band had no clue neither. The right hand doesn't seem to know or care what the left hand is doing.

 

In the end it pretty much became a check for everyone. Tour AFD every few years while occasionally pretending the album is coming out soon.

 

 

[jonah]

9 hours ago, djtripp20 said:

I remember seeing a backstage video from somewhere on the 2006 tour where Ron was basically pushed against the wall by Axl's security just so Axl could walk to the stage. May have been one of the Hammerstein shows. Seems pretty dysfunctional at best. 

I remember this. It was in Europe at a festival. Izzy was in the video too making a guest appearance and it wasn’t security who moved bumblefoot. It was Tom Mayhue

Edited August 25, 2023 by jonah

[Mikey Whipwreck]

45 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Some great insight shared by everyone. My thoughts on this thread:

1. As Riggs pointed out, I don't think they had a viable single when Beavan was attached. As much as I enjoy the Beavan demos and feel his work was the strongest, I think Jimmy Iovine made the right call. There's a reason he's Jimmy Iovine and Axl is well...Axl. WIthout "Better", I don't think they have a marketable album. CD has no hit singles outside of Better.

Better wasn't a hit though. It should have been. It probably would have been if the band and label made any effort to promote it. But the title track charted significantly higher even though they didn't bother chopping the intro in the version they sent to radio. I don't see how spending seven years and many millions more waiting for a song that wasn't even promoted was the right move. 

An album released in 2001 with CD and Street of Dreams as the main singles probably sells more than the 2008 album. Then they could have had follow up in 2004 or 2005 using Better as the lead single and they would have collectively sold millions more, established the new band as a viable creative entity and kept Robin and Bucket around longer instead of having to replace them with lesser talents. It never would have been as big as any lineup featuring Slash. But at least it could have been seen as more than a glorified cover band 

The reunion would have happened eventually no matter what, but the 1998-2004 iterations of the band should have accomplished a lot more

[Mikey Whipwreck]

45 minutes ago, Slugworth said:

 

The band had no clue neither. The right hand doesn't seem to know or care what the left hand is doing.

 

In the end it pretty much became a check for everyone. Tour AFD every few years while occasionally pretending the album is coming out soon

 

Don't disagree with this at all. But artists by nature are frequently impulsive, impractical and irresponsible. Giving someone like Axl a blank check and no real supervision, particularly in that era, was a recipe for disaster. There needed to be a few adults in the room. The right producer and a strong A&R could have gotten, at worst, a couple good albums out of this group between 2000-2006.

[Slugworth]

25 minutes ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

An album released in 2001 with CD and Street of Dreams as the main singles probably sells more than the 2008 album. Then they could have had follow up in 2004 or 2005 using Better as the lead single and they would have collectively sold millions more, established the new band as a viable creative entity and kept Robin and Bucket around longer instead of having to replace them with lesser talents. It never would have been as big as any lineup featuring Slash. But at least it could have been seen as more than a glorified cover band 

The reunion would have happened eventually no matter what, but the 1998-2004 iterations of the band should have accomplished a lot more

It would probably sell as much as the Audioslave album in 2002. 2-4 million copies.

 

Nothing to sneeze at.

 

 

[RONIN]

19 minutes ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

Better wasn't a hit though. It should have been. It probably would have been if the band and label made any effort to promote it. But the title track charted significantly higher even though they didn't bother chopping the intro in the version they sent to radio. I don't see how spending seven years and many millions more waiting for a song that wasn't even promoted was the right move. 

An album released in 2001 with CD and Street of Dreams as the main singles probably sells more than the 2008 album. Then they could have had follow up in 2004 or 2005 using Better as the lead single and they would have collectively sold millions more, established the new band as a viable creative entity and kept Robin and Bucket around longer instead of having to replace them with lesser talents. It never would have been as big as any lineup featuring Slash. But at least it could have been seen as more than a glorified cover band 

The reunion would have happened eventually no matter what, but the 1998-2004 iterations of the band should have accomplished a lot more

Oh no doubt, 100% in agreement. I think in retrospect, all of us (including Interscope) wish the album had just been released in 2001. Wasn't Better from the RTB sessions? Or did it come later? I always assumed the song was from the RTB era.

CD would definitely have been a bigger hit in 2001 than in 2008. But I don't necessary disagree with Bob Ezrin and Iovine that the material wasn't really there to bring back GnR in a major way if they had released that Sean Beavan album in 2001. Yes it would have done reasonably well but I don't think it really puts nu guns on the map nor justifies Axl breaking up the old band. I think they had a number of marketing problems with CD. A new lineup, a controversial frontman out of the limelight for a decade, and a new untested sound. And the material is iffy as well - where are the singles? It may have been a bridge too far for the label. Either they release the album as is - a solid if unremarkable effort - or roll the dice again. In an abundance of caution, they figured they'd send Axl back to the studio to touch it up and then release it the following year. So in theory, I think it was an understandable decision on their part. He didn't have a hit single, period. That said, I suppose it was incredibly naive given how long and labored the process had already been. It would be interesting to get Jimmy Iovine's thoughts on what went down there.

[Mikey Whipwreck]

5 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Oh no doubt, 100% in agreement. I think in retrospect, all of us (including Interscope) wish the album had just been released in 2001. Wasn't Better from the RTB sessions? Or did it come later? I always assumed the song was from the RTB era.

CD would definitely have been a bigger hit in 2001 than in 2008. But I don't necessary disagree with Bob Ezrin and Iovine that the material wasn't really there to bring back GnR in a major way if they had released that Sean Beavan album in 2001. Yes it would have done reasonably well but I don't think it really puts nu guns on the map nor justifies Axl breaking up the old band. I think they had a number of marketing problems with CD. A new lineup, a controversial frontman out of the limelight for a decade, and a new untested sound. And the material is iffy as well - where are the singles? It may have been a bridge too far for the label. Either they release the album as is - a solid if unremarkable effort - or roll the dice again. In an abundance of caution, they figured they'd send Axl back to the studio to touch it up and then release it the following year. So in theory, I think it was an understandable decision on their part. He didn't have a hit single, period. That said, I suppose it was incredibly naive given how long and labored the process had already been. It would be interesting to get Jimmy Iovine's thoughts on what went down there.

Better was part of the Village leaks as an instrumental called Three Dollar Pyramid so it dates back to at least 2000. I think RTB was there for about 2 years, late 2000 to sometime in 2002. Maybe someone else has more detail, but it's hard to say if Better was fleshed out from the Three Dollar demo under RTB, or after Axl and Caram took over. Bucket is all over it, so we can assume the instrumental was basically finished no later than 2003.

[Blackstar]

RTB lasted from early 2000 to early 2002 (for a few months in 2000 both Sean Beavan and RTB were there). Bob Ezrin was invited as an "advisor" sometime in mid to late 2000, so what he heard were the songs that were redone with RTB.

According to Fortus, they were still working on Better when he joined (at some point in early 2002) and Axl asked him if he had anything for that part of the chorus he eventually added to.

[Slugworth]

39 minutes ago, RONIN said:

But I don't necessary disagree with Bob Ezrin and Iovine that the material wasn't really there to bring back GnR in a major way if they had released that Sean Beavan album in 2001. Yes it would have done reasonably well but I don't think it really puts nu guns on the map nor justifies Axl breaking up the old band

Nothing would justify it.

 

Yes the project lacked big singles but does every album gotta have a Jungle or Vertigo to set the world on fire? What's wrong with a few decent charting hits on an album of virtual deep cuts?

 

It would always lack a monster single.  He isn't prolific. The label didn't realize he would simply keep adding countless layers to songs they already believe aren't good enough instead of working on new material.

 

This isn't U2 where the band deems an album not good enough and a year later they're shitting out Achtungs and Atomic Bombs.

 

With Chinese it's "what you see is what you get" and if you don't like it,  just give him five extra years and he'll let Bumblefoot wank all over it and Frank pound a drum while many of the vocal takes can be dated back to Al Gore and the Spice Girls.

 

 

[Uncle Bob]

1 hour ago, jonah said:

I remember this. It was in Europe at a festival. Izzy was in the video too making a guest appearance and it wasn’t security who moved bumblefoot. It was Tom Mayhue

Any chance to see that video?

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, Uncle Bob said:

Any chance to see that video?

https://streamable.com/9fm9po

[Tomek1985]

17 hours ago, weaponsnflowers said:

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Maybe there were good things and bad things. We can only speculate based on what people have said. It really doesn't matter anymore as it is in the past. What is now is now.

Spot on!

[SoulMonster]

19 hours ago, jacdaniel said:

I didn't follow the band closely during that period at all but I've read quite a bit that suggests it was a really toxic environment. 

Bucket has never spoken about his time in the band. It seems like it was a really negative experience for him. It seems he didn't get on with Tommy for definite. 

Bumble also seemed to have a really negative experience. People didn't want him in the band, nothing productive happening etc

Tommy had bad things to say about DJ. Pitman sueing for wages etc. 

Even the fact that so many people left is a good indication that things weren't good. 

The whole thing seems to have been a bit of a trainwreck.

Gotta keep in mind that what you describe here goes over a long period of time, from 1999 (when Bucket joined) to 2016 (Chris suing the band). It is to be expected there will be some drama among every group of colleagues over such a period of time, but with GN'R it ends up in the media or remembered (and perhaps exaggerated) by fans. By only highlighting the negatives and not the positives, we also get a skewed perspective of how it was. Friendships were built and people had a great time.

That being said, clearly some of the band members didn't get along. Bucket is an eccentric guy and there were some issues. Bumble was not greeted with smiles and a pat on his back when he came in. Chris suing wasn't about band relationship toxicity, though, but missing salary. 

As for people leaving, that was likely more to do with being frustrated by things moving so slowly. And things moving slowly wasn't about band toxicity but Axl not getting the record out in time, cancelling a tour, band members leaving, re-recording parts, label not being supportive towards the music, and then into a spiral of doom.

Edited August 25, 2023 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, RONIN said:

Yes it would have done reasonably well but I don't think it really puts nu guns on the map nor justifies Axl breaking up the old band. 

This implies that Axl actively set to dismantle the UYI lineup to be able to continue with his vision, which really isn't true. The lineup disintegrated to a large extent due to Axl, but not because he deliberately wanted it but because he wasn't able to keep it together. Both himself and the band.

Edited August 25, 2023 by SoulMonster

[drlaban]

3 hours ago, Slugworth said:

Nothing would justify it.

 

Yes the project lacked big singles but does every album gotta have a Jungle or Vertigo to set the world on fire? What's wrong with a few decent charting hits on an album of virtual deep cuts?

 

It would always lack a monster single.  He isn't prolific. The label didn't realize he would simply keep adding countless layers to songs they already believe aren't good enough instead of working on new material.

 

This isn't U2 where the band deems an album not good enough and a year later they're shitting out Achtungs and Atomic Bombs.

 

With Chinese it's "what you see is what you get" and if you don't like it,  just give him five extra years and he'll let Bumblefoot wank all over it and Frank pound a drum while many of the vocal takes can be dated back to Al Gore and the Spice Girls.

 

 

Exactly. Release it in 00/01, let it flop, and take it from there. 
 

A “classic GNR” album released in 94/95 wouldn’t have lived up to the expectations either. 

[mr-fukaji]

Buckethead had the coop but you can see in the extras for the first Brain DVD that it's basically a rehearsal room with all the gear set up and a wire fence put around it, nothing you'd look at and say was halting production or causing shit.

when the Zutaut leaks happened I was convinced then and i'm still convinced now you could/they should have made a great album out of the rough mixes on the first four CDs, a version of CD with Perhaps and Atlas in place of stuff like Scraped would have been it, man. Like that's the stuff I was hearing in my head when Axl spoke about an abums worth of music with a bonus disc of other shit, with that line up once Fortus settled in. Way before Better, way before they had the chance to add anything else

Edited August 25, 2023 by mr-fukaji

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, mr-fukaji said:

Buckethead had the coop but you can see in the extras for the first Brain DVD that it's basically a rehearsal room with all the gear set up and a wire fence put around it, nothing you'd look at and say was halting production or causing shit.

Yeah, Beta said the same: (88) 23. JANUARY 2001-NOVEMBER 2002: RICHARD REPLACES PAUL, TOURING STARTS (a-4-d.com)

But what was halting stuff was Buckethead disappearing. And his eccentricity, like only talking to a puppet and always wearing a mask even at rehearsals, likely wore out both band members and managers. Still, the main reason for lack of progress lies solely on Axl, and not on any other band member.

[rumandraisin]

34 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yeah, Beta said the same: (88) 23. JANUARY 2001-NOVEMBER 2002: RICHARD REPLACES PAUL, TOURING STARTS (a-4-d.com)

But what was halting stuff was Buckethead disappearing. And his eccentricity, like only talking to a puppet and always wearing a mask even at rehearsals, likely wore out both band members and managers. Still, the main reason for lack of progress lies solely on Axl, and not on any other band member.

Cynical but you can't help but laugh. He was getting paid to take the piss basically. He came on the project with the heat intentions I'm sure but it wouldn't have taken long to realise Axl wasn't putting this thing out anytime soon and everyone was sat around getting paid while watching horror films eating chicken!

[ChineseDemocracy2004]

16 hours ago, djtripp20 said:

I remember seeing a backstage video from somewhere on the 2006 tour where Ron was basically pushed against the wall by Axl's security just so Axl could walk to the stage. May have been one of the Hammerstein shows. Seems pretty dysfunctional at best. 

IIRC Madrid, 25th May 2006.

[weaponsnflowers]

A lot coulda, shoulda, woulda but it didn't. Nu Guns was cool and should have been bigger then it eventually was. Good thing the leaks kept things interesting. The benefit of anyone living long enough is that with AI it will be possible to create all kinds of alternate universe media, like we have already seen on this board. So with time and as AI advances even more, anyone can eventually create anything. They can have 90's Axl singing Ren and Stimpy's "happy happy joy joy" or whatever! So live in the now where all things are within your reach!

[PatrickS77]

6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

https://streamable.com/9fm9po

Wow! Way to blow things out of proportion.

[Master Of Reality]

6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

https://streamable.com/9fm9po

Madrid 2006, first show of the European tour and Axl was + 2 hours late🫣. As you can see in the video, the crowd was ready to riot (chairs floating around 😆). I remember everyone following the updates online were so affraid it would be Vancouver all over again lol.

[allwaystired]

6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

https://streamable.com/9fm9po

Wow- crowds have changed SO much in such a short period of time. All those people jumping and singing. 

These days you're lucky if someone taps their foot at a gig! 

Mobile phones, obesity and high priced tickets really have dampened the atmosphere at gigs. 

Where was that footage from? 

[janrichmond]

3 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

Wow- crowds have changed SO much in such a short period of time. All those people jumping and singing. 

These days you're lucky if someone taps their foot at a gig! 

Mobile phones, obesity and high priced tickets really have dampened the atmosphere at gigs. 

Where was that footage from? 

Madrid 2006

[Stay.Of.Execution]

6 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

Wow- crowds have changed SO much in such a short period of time. All those people jumping and singing. 

These days you're lucky if someone taps their foot at a gig! 

Mobile phones, obesity and high priced tickets really have dampened the atmosphere at gigs. 

Where was that footage from? 

There's still parts of the world where it's like that. I think it's mostly the USA where the crowd is fucking lame.

Also there's a difference between crowds at huge shows like gnr and smaller concerts, where people still go crazy

52 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Wow! Way to blow things out of proportion.

The scene is weird though and bumble is made look like a school boy here. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Stay.Of.Execution