Was Nu Guns a really toxic environment?

[RONIN]

16 minutes ago, Gunner Gilby said:

I don't know if it was toxic or not. But the Guns of 85-94 was a bunch of friends who got together naturally. Dizzy wasn't an original member but knew the band from their early club days. Gilby said Izzy was his first friend when he moved to LA. So it was kinda fitting he ended up replacing his friend. From the late 90s to 09 it was Axl hand picking musicians who were talented enough but had nothing really in common.

And most of these guys did not like or even respect GnR and were upfront about it - a lot of them felt GnR was beneath them like Tommy and Freese. Gilby and Matt actually loved the sound of GnR and wanted to play in a band like that - huge difference in attitude and mentality right there. Tommy is the very definition of a paycheck warrior. Wasn't he working as a call center rep before getting the call to audition in GnR? You're a punk rock guy, GnR doesn't interest you, but you still take the job and stick around for 15 years to collect the paycheck. The other talent didn't need to do that. I respect Finck, Bucket, Freese, Billy Howerdell and the rest of the talent that walked when it was apparent Axl was going nowhere with this project.

I was listening to an interview with Dave Abruzzese (the drummer for Pearl Jam) and while he likes Axl, it seems to me like he didn't really respect GnR's body of work all that much. I think the draw for most of these guys was the talented artists Axl had assembled and the promise of doing something contemporary with those players. A frankenstein band basically that has nothing to do with GnR. He doesn't outright say it but it seems he was turned off by Axl doing a solo project under the GnR name and compromising himself just to stay within the confines of the brand. And why did Axl do that? Well...the multimillion dollar advance for the next GnR album ofcourse. You didn't get million dollar paydays when you're the Axl Rose band. He didn't want to start from the bottom again like Duff and Slash who coincidentally were dropped by Geffen around that time.

[Original]

They were shit “musicians” just happy to soak off of GnR’s teet.  Literal no one’s before and after (and during) their stint as hired musicians in AxL’s solo band.   Stinson had a little bit of cred.   The rest just shit.   

[WhazUp]

Based on how many times things got recorded over and over each other on the same song, the constant changing of members, and only 1 album in 20 years to show for it.... yeah I am guessing it wasn't a happy-go-lucky enviorment in GNR land lol

[Coma16]

20 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Based on how many times things got recorded over and over each other on the same song, the constant changing of members, and only 1 album in 20 years to show for it.... yeah I am guessing it wasn't a happy-go-lucky enviorment in GNR land lol

It's been 7 years since the regrouping, how many albums did they release since?

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

22 hours ago, lost un the jungle said:

I agree, after CD release GNR was Axl+"Friends" on summer camp playing

Funny enough- I actually enjoyed the 2009-14 era a lot. Just seemed like they were having fun goofing off, and the band was trending back to more of a "Classic Guns"-vibe in general. With that being the case, reunion/regrouping was really the only logical next step IMHO...

[PatrickS77]

20 hours ago, Original said:

They were shit “musicians” just happy to soak off of GnR’s teet.  Literal no one’s before and after (and during) their stint as hired musicians in AxL’s solo band.   Stinson had a little bit of cred.   The rest just shit.   

Yeah. They are professional side men or solo acts with very little niche success.

[mcmurray]

There's some interesting discussion here: 

Worth a read if you haven't already.

 

 

[Modano09]

I don't know if it was "toxic" but it must have been endless frustration. You're working on music for years, told it's going to be released and then it just isn't. It's just tinkered with over and over for years until people give up and leave so then new people come in to work on the same stuff and have that tinkered with over and over. Every time it seems like things are starting to happen they just don't. I can see that wearing on people after a while.

 

 

 

[invisible_rose]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:13 AM, Original said:

They were shit “musicians” just happy to soak off of GnR’s teet.  Literal no one’s before and after (and during) their stint as hired musicians in AxL’s solo band.   Stinson had a little bit of cred.   The rest just shit.   

Yeah, I mean Bucket could hardly even play guitar! 

(yes, I am being sarcastic)

I think some were more talented (by some margin) than others. The likes of Bucket, Finck et al had no interest in being hangers on - that's why they bailed when new music became virtually impossible to put out. I think if you look more towards the likes of Ashba - then I'd agree with you.

[Cosmo]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:13 AM, Original said:

They were shit “musicians” just happy to soak off of GnR’s teet.  Literal no one’s before and after (and during) their stint as hired musicians in AxL’s solo band.   Stinson had a little bit of cred.   The rest just shit.   

Buckethead has a more respectable and artistically rich solo career than Duff, Steven, Izzy and Slash put together. 

Josh Freese is considerably the world's #1 session drummer, and has played with huge acts such as the Foo Fighters, NIN and Wolfmother.

Chris Pitman, as much as I dislike him, plays for Tool, which is one of the biggest rock bands in the world today.

Robin Finck plays for NIN, which is an amazing and huge band (since I guess popularity is really important to you, for some reason)

[Martin Riggs]

4 hours ago, mcmurray said:

There's some interesting discussion here: 

Worth a read if you haven't already.

 

 

Haha, good God! I had forgotten about that Axl press release regarding Buckethead’s abrupt departure and them cancelling Rock in Rio. Must’ve been a real kick in the teeth for him as Velvet Revolver were just 2 months away from releasing Contraband. The VH1 Behind the Music (which I love) also came out 3 months later. When it rains, it pours. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Martin Riggs

[ShadowOfTheWave]

41 minutes ago, Martin Riggs said:

Haha, good God! I had forgotten about that Axl press release regarding Buckethead’s abrupt departure and them cancelling Rock in Rio. Must’ve been a real kick in the teeth for him as Velvet Revolver were just 2 months away from releasing Contraband. The VH1 Behind the Music (which I love) also came out 3 months later. When it rains, it pours. 

If GNR had played Rio 2004 it probably would have been the exact same setlist as 2002 with no new album released that year. So I can't feel too bad for Axl on that front.

[D4NNY]

4 hours ago, Modano09 said:

I don't know if it was "toxic" but it must have been endless frustration. You're working on music for years, told it's going to be released and then it just isn't. It's just tinkered with over and over for years until people give up and leave so then new people come in to work on the same stuff and have that tinkered with over and over. Every time it seems like things are starting to happen they just don't. I can see that wearing on people after a while.

 

 

 

Unless you’re 4tus… 😂

[rumandraisin]

20 hours ago, Martin Riggs said:

Haha, good God! I had forgotten about that Axl press release regarding Buckethead’s abrupt departure and them cancelling Rock in Rio. Must’ve been a real kick in the teeth for him as Velvet Revolver were just 2 months away from releasing Contraband. The VH1 Behind the Music (which I love) also came out 3 months later. When it rains, it pours. 

I'm fairly sure as Rio 2004 approached and they probably hadn't even seen Axl since the end of 2002 they used Bucketheads departure as an excuse to cancel it. Bucket left long before then. 

[Cosmo]

4 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

I'm fairly sure as Rio 2004 approached and they probably hadn't even seen Axl since the end of 2002 they used Bucketheads departure as an excuse to cancel it. Bucket left long before then. 

I wonder what is Axl's problem with rehearsing. I mean, yeah it's not the most pleasant thing ever but man... go once in a while, you know? Why have a band when you're gonna be so damn distant all the time?

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, Cosmo said:

I wonder what is Axl's problem with rehearsing. I mean, yeah it's not the most pleasant thing ever but man... go once in a while, you know? Why have a band when you're gonna be so damn distant all the time?

I think the more revelations that come out about that time, the more I think GnR was just a side hobby for Axl after the '93 tour. Something he'd work on once a week or a few times a month. I don't think the creative muse was ever really there which explains the lack of output post Illusion.

[RONIN]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:59 AM, Cosmo said:

Buckethead has a more respectable and artistically rich solo career than Duff, Steven, Izzy and Slash put together. 

Josh Freese is considerably the world's #1 session drummer, and has played with huge acts such as the Foo Fighters, NIN and Wolfmother.

Chris Pitman, as much as I dislike him, plays for Tool, which is one of the biggest rock bands in the world today.

Robin Finck plays for NIN, which is an amazing and huge band (since I guess popularity is really important to you, for some reason)

He had top tier talent in the original incarnations of Nu GnR as you pointed out. From 2006 onwards though it just kept getting watered down. Imho, guys like Fortus, Bumble, Frank, etc are journeymen musicians. Fine session players but hardly worthy of an elite level rock band like GnR. What have they written that is worthy of GnR? And Tommy Stinson is the very definition of a "in it for a paycheck" band member regardless of his "cred".  I think Axl hurt the band's brand by the constant rotating lineups in nu guns - especially when each replacement is a downgrade from the person they are filling in for.

I suppose you could say that Gilby and Matt weren't really worthy of being in Guns either and I'd be inclined to agree.

[Slugworth]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

I think the more revelations that come out about that time, the more I think GnR was just a side hobby for Axl after the '93 tour.

Chinese Democracy the side hobby.

 

Any time he needed to either do something to justify the existence of new GNR or needed an infusion of cash,  here comes the "Appetite for Destruction thinly disguised as Chinese Democracy" tours.

[drlaban]

11 hours ago, RONIN said:

I think the more revelations that come out about that time, the more I think GnR was just a side hobby for Axl after the '93 tour. Something he'd work on once a week or a few times a month. I don't think the creative muse was ever really there which explains the lack of output post Illusion.

It was enough material for a release in 2000. If they could quickly mix and master OMG for the movie in ‘99 of course they could do that for another 9-11 songs. 

[RONIN]

8 hours ago, Slugworth said:

Chinese Democracy the side hobby.

 

Any time he needed to either do something to justify the existence of new GNR or needed an infusion of cash,  here comes the "Appetite for Destruction thinly disguised as Chinese Democracy" tours.

Exactly. Or if the execs are angry and threaten to cut funding, kick over a few instrumentals or a half-baked demo to keep the cash flowing.

I was just skimming through chinese whispers on GnR evo recently and it's crazy how many times the record company offered Axl a million dollar bonus if he could deliver the album in a certain timeframe. He must have left so much money on the table through this entire saga by not being able to follow through. It really is such a bizarre journey. There was an A&R guy saying that there was a near finished album ready to go even in '98....just needed vocals apparently.

[RONIN]

38 minutes ago, drlaban said:

It was enough material for a release in 2000. If they could quickly mix and master OMG for the movie in ‘99 of course they could do that for another 9-11 songs. 

Wasn't there even more music written for End of Days? I vaguely remember some old Axl interview where he said he wrote another song for the movie called "Mommy is doing the devil" or something like that...

[drlaban]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Exactly. Or if the execs are angry and threaten to cut funding, kick over a few instrumentals or a half-baked demo to keep the cash flowing.

I was just skimming through chinese whispers on GnR evo recently and it's crazy how many times the record company offered Axl a million dollar bonus if he could deliver the album in a certain timeframe. He must have left so much money on the table through this entire saga by not being able to follow through. It really is such a bizarre journey. There was an A&R guy saying that there was a near finished album ready to go even in '98....just needed vocals apparently.

But the producers said the material wasn’t good enough when Axl was ready for mixing?

[Cosmo]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:42 AM, drlaban said:

But the producers said the material wasn’t good enough when Axl was ready for mixing?

If I'm not mistaken it was Bob Ezrin that said he had like 2 or 3 good songs - and it was probably the label that kept pushing for a release asap because of the rising costs of the album.

[SoulMonster]

The UYI lineup was probably more toxic, especially towards it's latter phase.

[GnrJasmin92]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:42 AM, RONIN said:

Wasn't there even more music written for End of Days? I vaguely remember some old Axl interview where he said he wrote another song for the movie called "Mommy is doing the devil" or something like that...

'Can The Devil Do Mommy & Me'