THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[Voodoochild]

Funny how things are with this band… Even though I recorded every single instrument on my own, including orchestra and drums, I can’t post a cover of The General on YouTube at all because it gets blocked. 

[colonizedmind]

13 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Funny how things are with this band… Even though I recorded every single instrument on my own, including orchestra and drums, I can’t post a cover of The General on YouTube at all because it gets blocked. 

Post Dec 8th you should be ok to do that....they're just in hyper sensitive mode right now....

[izzyjim]

12 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

You've been around since 2005 and didn't catch that?!

I've been around much longer than that, yet I failed to catch it 

[hudsonsaul]

14 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

It is a fad though. Vinyl sales are on the up – it largely went away. 10-20 years ago there wasn't 10 different colour options of vinyl or entire sections of shops like HMV devoted to it. I get that there's a collectors market for it, and that's fine, but buying vinyls to listen to them – as someone's only means if listening to something – is plain daft. Why would you go out of your way to listen to the worst version of something?

Modern vinyls aren't even made right! They're the same digital files put onto a vinyl – they're a square peg in a round hole. They're low quality pieces of crap made to sponge off gullible fans.

Old vinyls? Whatever, good at the time but outdated tech. Modern vinyls? Utter bullshit. They're for putting on a shelf and looking at, not for listening to.

That's not really true at all. There are of course plenty of digital to vinyl versions out there and the community in general calls that out. That though is just normal, any time a company can make something cheaper and easier they will. 

But those a rare. Majority of bands and labels use legit pressing plants from legit sources. 

Personally love getting releases on vinyl and it's my main source for listening. Certainly bands and artists I purchase don't do this digital to vinyl bullshit you appear to claim is norm. 

Also, even back in the vinyl hayday there were good and bad pressings etc. 

[ToonGuns]

16 hours ago, allwaystired said:

https://www.discogs.com/release/28865935-Guns-N-Roses-Perhaps-

This mentions the CD being an SHM one, which perhaps is the 'exclusive to Japan' bit, rather than the CD in general? 

I know the Japanese market goes in for SHM CDs quite a lot, so it would make sense. 

The notes on that listing are pretty funny…

CD, SHM CD

The long-awaited new single "Pahaps" announced in August this year will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in Japan!

Guns N' Roses' new single "Pahaps", suddenly released in August this year, will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in Japan.
This is their first new single since "Hard School", which was released in 2021. It was released digitally simultaneously worldwide in August this year, and a limited 7-inch analog single was only sold on official website of the band, but it was decided that it will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in CD format. Japan. It was suddenly decided that a CD single will be released only in Japan, combining the popular "Pahaps" and another new song "The General".

[ToonGuns]

18 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

It is a fad though. Vinyl sales are on the up – it largely went away. 10-20 years ago there wasn't 10 different colour options of vinyl or entire sections of shops like HMV devoted to it. I get that there's a collectors market for it, and that's fine, but buying vinyls to listen to them – as someone's only means if listening to something – is plain daft. Why would you go out of your way to listen to the worst version of something?

Modern vinyls aren't even made right! They're the same digital files put onto a vinyl – they're a square peg in a round hole. They're low quality pieces of crap made to sponge off gullible fans.

Old vinyls? Whatever, good at the time but outdated tech. Modern vinyls? Utter bullshit. They're for putting on a shelf and looking at, not for listening to.

Forgive me, but if you genuinely believe this then I suggest you do some more research, as this has been written from a position of ignorance.

Yes there are bad vinyls. But there are also bad CD’s and digital files, poor mastering, low stream quality etc. Solely highlighting possible issues that can impact vinyl without highlighting issues that can impact digital music is a flawed argument.

Good vinyls (whether old or new) will, in general, sound better than their digital equivalents. I’ll point to Chinese Democracy (to keep it on point) and Fear Innoculum as two very good examples of this.

[Twinaleblood]

5 minutes ago, ToonGuns said:

I’ll point to Chinese Democracy (to keep it on point) 

The European press for sure. As far as I know, the US press is plagued by horrible inner groove distortion unfortunately. That was botched badly.

[ToonGuns]

15 minutes ago, Twinaleblood said:

The European press for sure. As far as I know, the US press is plagued by horrible inner groove distortion unfortunately. That was botched badly.

Yes agree 100%. 

[Jw224]

1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

Forgive me, but if you genuinely believe this then I suggest you do some more research, as this has been written from a position of ignorance.

Yes there are bad vinyls. But there are also bad CD’s and digital files, poor mastering, low stream quality etc. Solely highlighting possible issues that can impact vinyl without highlighting issues that can impact digital music is a flawed argument.

Good vinyls (whether old or new) will, in general, sound better than their digital equivalents. I’ll point to Chinese Democracy (to keep it on point) and Fear Innoculum as two very good examples of this.

This isn't really true at all. If a vinyl has the same master as the cd (most vinyls nowadays) it will sound pretty much the same as the digital version. I own many vinyl that sound exactly like the cd.  There can be subtle differences just due to the nature of the playback (different cartridges, turntables, stylus etc) but I wouldn't say that means it sounds "better". 

There isn't really a rule when it comes to this stuff like you're making it seem with this post. Obviously if a different, better sounding master is used for the vinyl (or cd, works both ways) then that's where the main difference will be.

Not saying there aren't examples of vinyl sounding different than the cd due to the nature of the format, I just don't think it's a rule or something special about vinyl.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Jw224

[allwaystired]

1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

The notes on that listing are pretty funny…

CD, SHM CD

The long-awaited new single "Pahaps" announced in August this year will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in Japan!

Guns N' Roses' new single "Pahaps", suddenly released in August this year, will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in Japan.
This is their first new single since "Hard School", which was released in 2021. It was released digitally simultaneously worldwide in August this year, and a limited 7-inch analog single was only sold on official website of the band, but it was decided that it will be released to the general public in SHM-CD format only in CD format. Japan. It was suddenly decided that a CD single will be released only in Japan, combining the popular "Pahaps" and another new song "The General".

Haha, yeah. I think that's probably just the text from the Japan website run through a translation tool! 

Strange that the CD hasn't come up anywhere other than that one site actually. 

[DingBat]

1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

Forgive me, but if you genuinely believe this then I suggest you do some more research, as this has been written from a position of ignorance.

Yes there are bad vinyls. But there are also bad CD’s and digital files, poor mastering, low stream quality etc. Solely highlighting possible issues that can impact vinyl without highlighting issues that can impact digital music is a flawed argument.

Good vinyls (whether old or new) will, in general, sound better than their digital equivalents. I’ll point to Chinese Democracy (to keep it on point) and Fear Innoculum as two very good examples of this.

A"good vinyl" (old or new) will never sound better than a lossless digital version of the same track.

It's like saying a good VHS looks better than a HD download of a film. Absolute utter nonsense. 

I get that people like the sound of vinyl, that's cool, but acting like its some super high quality way of listening to music in 2023 is daft.

[88gunners]

I really really wish I could hear Monsters again! 

[DoMw94]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:32 AM, hudsonsaul said:

That's not really true at all. There are of course plenty of digital to vinyl versions out there and the community in general calls that out. That though is just normal, any time a company can make something cheaper and easier they will. 

But those a rare. Majority of bands and labels use legit pressing plants from legit sources. 

👇

On 11/11/2023 at 5:06 PM, DoMw94 said:

Most modern vinyls are cut from digital masters and are not made for vinyl. We're also talking about a band that uses lots of digital effects in its latest recordings.

This is an interesting read that explains what I'm getting at, without either the rose-tinted spectacles or my own bias against it:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/does-vinyl-really-sound-better

"...and the fact that many modern vinyl records are actually cut from digital masters anyway – so they are no longer a pure analogue signal at all. Will they all of a sudden sound better for being on vinyl? Of course not. But they will sound more ‘vinyl’."

On 11/12/2023 at 1:24 PM, DingBat said:

A"good vinyl" (old or new) will never sound better than a lossless digital version of the same track.

It's like saying a good VHS looks better than a HD download of a film. Absolute utter nonsense. 

I get that people like the sound of vinyl, that's cool, but acting like its some super high quality way of listening to music in 2023 is daft.

This is EXACTLY my point. Liking it is one thing, but acting like it's the best sounding in this day and age just makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited December 13, 2023 by DoMw94

[ToonGuns]

42 minutes ago, DingBat said:

A"good vinyl" (old or new) will never sound better than a lossless digital version of the same track.

It's like saying a good VHS looks better than a HD download of a film. Absolute utter nonsense. 

I get that people like the sound of vinyl, that's cool, but acting like its some super high quality way of listening to music in 2023 is daft.

We probably should debate this in a separate thread to keep this one on topic, but as a reply there’s a lot wrong with what you’re saying here, and additionally we are now muddying different things. I prefer to stick to facts.

Lossless is better than lossy, yes. A digital vinyl transfer is different to AAA, yes. VHS quality is worse then HD, yes.

But vinyl is also lossless so it’s not true to say, as a blanket fact, that a lossless digital will always sound better than vinyl, which is also why the VHS v HD comparison is very flawed as HD is better quality than VHS (factually, measurably), but vinyl lossless as an input v digital lossless is essentially the same (arguably vinyl is true AAA so actually better).

Then we need to factor in that most people don’t stream or listen to lossless audio, whereas vinyl is always lossless. And you’ve also got variations of speaker quality, cables, amp, tone arm, room ambience etc which can impact both lossless digital playback quality just as much as vinyl. No point in a lossless input if the output is poor.

And there are other elements as well to consider such as the mastering quality - often the mastering is different for vinyl for good reason which can improve the audio (which is why I specifically referenced Tool’s recent release above as the vinyl is significantly better than the lossless digital).

Music genre also has a part to play here. This is entirely my own opinion, but classical and ambient sound better digitally; blues, rock and jazz (in particular) sound better on vinyl due to the inherent warmth.

Yes, if a cheap / poor quality vinyl has been pressed poorly and / or is simply a digital transfer then it will sound poor.

If the input is good (ie good vinyl, good recording, good mastering etc) then vinyl is “super high quality” even in 2023.

It’s probably worth saying - personally I’m not pro vinyl and anti digital at all, I just prefer a fact-based balanced argument and like good quality sound and music regardless of input. 

[DingBat]

1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

We probably should debate this in a separate thread to keep this one on topic, but as a reply there’s a lot wrong with what you’re saying here, and additionally we are now muddying different things. I prefer to stick to facts.

Lossless is better than lossy, yes. A digital vinyl transfer is different to AAA, yes. VHS quality is worse then HD, yes.

But vinyl is also lossless so it’s not true to say, as a blanket fact, that a lossless digital will always sound better than vinyl, which is also why the VHS v HD comparison is very flawed as HD is better quality than VHS (factually, measurably), but vinyl lossless as an input v digital lossless is essentially the same (arguably vinyl is true AAA so actually better).

Then we need to factor in that most people don’t stream or listen to lossless audio, whereas vinyl is always lossless. And you’ve also got variations of speaker quality, cables, amp, tone arm, room ambience etc which can impact both lossless digital playback quality just as much as vinyl. No point in a lossless input if the output is poor.

And there are other elements as well to consider such as the mastering quality - often the mastering is different for vinyl for good reason which can improve the audio (which is why I specifically referenced Tool’s recent release above as the vinyl is significantly better than the lossless digital).

Music genre also has a part to play here. This is entirely my own opinion, but classical and ambient sound better digitally; blues, rock and jazz (in particular) sound better on vinyl due to the inherent warmth.

Yes, if a cheap / poor quality vinyl has been pressed poorly and / or is simply a digital transfer then it will sound poor.

If the input is good (ie good vinyl, good recording, good mastering etc) then vinyl is “super high quality” even in 2023.

It’s probably worth saying - personally I’m not pro vinyl and anti digital at all, I just prefer a fact-based balanced argument and like good quality sound and music regardless of input. 

Yes, VHS and HD are "factually measurable", as is vinyl, cassette, cd and digital music. They're all multimedia containers. Unless you think vinyl somehow exists outside of these parameters? 

You like how vinyl sounds, awesome! I do too, but you're not going to convince anyone here that it's superior in measurable sonic quality to modern music deliverables, because it just isn't true. Digital files are demonstrably superior to Vinly.

Lossless digital audio offers a way more accurate and precise sound representation of the original studio recording with the possibility of much greater bit depth on the deliverable, with greater dynamic range and separation, without the distortions and imperfections of vinyl (which a lot of people like). It also doesn't slowly destroy itself after each listen.

This is a silly and nerdy conversation. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by DingBat

[oneway23]

Harmonic variations presented by vinyl playback can be more pleasing to the human ear, but, more pleasing is not the same thing as objectively better.  

The signal to noise ratio and dynamic range are both severely limited, with less low-end and rolled-off treble frequencies.

Can an AAA all-analog pressing mastered directly "from the master" sound better?  Of course!  

That's a difference in mastering, however.  These days, most (though admittedly not all) vinyl is cut from the same master as the CD or hi-res download file.

[GnR Chris]

IDK why people are shitting on vinyls. Even from just a hobby/collection standpoint. Only vinyls I have are Appetite, Illusions, Chinese Democracy, Hard Skool, then all the ones in the Locked and Loaded box set. I enjoy having them. It takes me back to the days when albums were tangible. Where the artwork was thoughtful. I don’t even have a record player at the moment.

Getting back on topic, I guess we’re at the point we all assume “The General” won’t drop on Apple and Spotify till we’re at the December release date? Bummer. I keep looking for it every Friday. 

[Voodoochild]

Yeah, vinyl is not a 100% accurate representation of the master as it’s bound to the imperfections of the analog format. CD is just a digital copy, there are no physical variables. 
 

13 hours ago, colonizedmind said:

Post Dec 8th you should be ok to do that....they're just in hyper sensitive mode right now....

Hopefully, but the problem is that once is out, I could just use the drums and orchestra of the original lol. It was a lot of working for nothing. 😢
 

 

[D4NNY]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:44 PM, DoMw94 said:

You've been around since 2005 and didn't catch that?!

 

Anyway (ignoring the fact the single is only widely available on vinyl at present), when are people going to stop dicking around with vinyl? It's not better, it doesn't sound better, it's dead technology for a reason. The world's moved on and sound quality is better on pretty much every other format.

The sooner this stupid fad is over, the better. 

Why are you so annoyed over vinyl? What’s the big deal? What did vinyl ever do to you? 

[janrichmond]

As someone who grew up with vinyl- or LPs as we called them-  I was so happy when CDs were launched, no more scratched LPs, and CDs didn't 'jump' if someone slammed a door in the house. I still have most of my old vinyl but it hasn't been played since the 1980s. I keep it in the loft for my kids to have when I die.

[D4NNY]

6 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

As someone who grew up with vinyl- or LPs as we called them-  I was so happy when CDs were launched, no more scratched LPs, and CDs didn't 'jump' if someone slammed a door in the house. I still have most of my old vinyl but it hasn't been played since the 1980s. I keep it in the loft for my kids to have when I die.

I remember in my first car CDs would ‘jump’ every time I went over a speed bump or pot hole 😅 I have a fair few records that like you, I think when I make my exit my son can have them, pass on the old gems for him to hopefully enjoy

[Voodoochild]

Apparently, the Instagram had no problems with my cover?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czj0kx1iyWf/

[Gordon Comstock]

It's such a stupid thing, but it annoys me every time. I feel like I'm channelling @RussTCB here, but I've read the word "vinyls" so many times in this thread it's going to make my head explode

It's vinyl. Singular and plural. "Vinyls" is what teenage pop fans call those things that hang on their bedrooms walls.

[Blackstar]

8 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Apparently, the Instagram had no problems with my cover?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czj0kx1iyWf/

Amazing work

2 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

It's such a stupid thing, but it annoys me every time. I feel like I'm channelling @RussTCB here, but I've read the word "vinyls" so many times in this thread it's going to make my head explode

It's vinyl. Singular and plural. "Vinyls" is what teenage pop fans call those things that hang on their bedrooms walls.

Yes, I remember Russ's reaction when Fernando said "vinyls"

[bangit]

12 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Apparently, the Instagram had no problems with my cover?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czj0kx1iyWf/

Seriously good. Well done. Impressive!