Chinese @ 15. Your memories/thoughts - Then and now. Anything Goes.

[BangoSkank]

I think Axl gets an unfair amount of shit for how long it took. He thought it was virtually done in 2000 and we know the locker leaks that he was basically right. And if you've read Chinese Whispers there are multiple accounts of people coming in and just going, "add this, add this, here's a new producer, add this." And then what came out in 2008 was super similar to what was done in 2000 with just a lot more layers on it.

I wrote a whole essay about this, but I honestly think if he just labelled it a solo project, the public and critics would have been a lot more receptive. I also think the label would have been less apprehensive and pushy about making it sound a certain way. Yes, Axl is a crazy perfectionist in the studio with bizarre work habits, but again, it was virtually done in 2000. He's made it clear that he would never have labeled solo, so it is what it is and what's done is done.

My personal take? I like the album a lot still. My two beefs with it are that there are just enormous amounts of layers of each song that it gets a bit convoluted at times. ALSO, I wish it was heavier. Axl was very into industrial metal at the time and "Better," "Shackler's," even the title track show this and fucking rule. And listening to everything that's leaked you can see he had so much more in this direction. I don't know, I wish we had an Axl solo album of:

Chinese Democracy

Shackler's Revenge

Better

Silkworms

Oh My God

Dummy

There Was A Time

Devious Bastard

Monsters

The General

Prostitute 

It wouldn't be for everybody, but it would be for some people, and I would be one of them, and man, would I have loved it.

Edited November 24, 2023 by BangoSkank

[F*ck Fear]

3 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

Well we did get his raspy vocal take he did after the original vocal take. Not the original Brain remix but it's included in this remake by a fan (Axl's harder vocal)

Wait for the kick in around 1 minute...is that what you were more wanting, along those lines?

 

That's pretty cool. I absolutely loved the live version from Austrailia in 2010. Same music as the record but with Axl in classic vocal mode.

[jamillos]

4 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

Well we did get his raspy vocal take he did after the original vocal take. Not the original Brain remix but it's included in this remake by a fan (Axl's harder vocal)

Wait for the kick in around 1 minute...is that what you were more wanting, along those lines?

 

Dude, this is some horrible mix. You clearly haven't heard that whole fucking divine thing! 

Edited November 24, 2023 by jamillos

[colonizedmind]

8 hours ago, jamillos said:

What did Chinese mean to you, at the time, as it finally released and that period in general? The myth, the legend, the frustration...
You said it – the myth, the legend, the frustration… although I can’t really say I ever was overly frustrated. It was more of looking forward to and big expectations on my part rather than frustration, even though I obviously did want to hear it at last as much as the next person. 

Having been a fan since 1992, I basically witnessed the band waning away throughout the vast portion of my "fanhood". And I got used to that. And then that mysterious 2001/2002 era emerged, when I would try to grasp any bits of the new songs' live versions in mp3 anywhere I could, as I didn’t have my own internet connection back then. When I wanted to listen to OMG, I had to get the movie pirated and burned on a CD, then fast forward to the end… 

And then the 2006 era came, Axl looked and sounded great again, and then I saw that T.W.A.T video from the NYC '06 warm-up shows, and I knew it would be awesome. I was blown away by that live rendition, with Axl’s screams, Ron’s guitars and all that. 

The album itself was not a let-down. I did miss some more simple, kick-ass song without long intros, in the vein of Perfect Crime and the likes, but the album sounded pretty much as I’d expected. A certain era definitely concluded that day I put the CD in the drive for the first time. That was a sacred moment, and nobody and nothing was allowed to disturb me.  

What does Chinese mean to you now, 15 years on?
I haven’t heard it in its entirety in a very long time; I think the last time was around the Village leaks. Sure, it’s more of an Axl solo than a true GNR record, but most of us got used to those replacement musicians and gradually adopted them as "GN'R" – which is funny when you look at it from today’s perspective, because now I can once again clearly see what it really was – replacements. Good ones, and good on Axl for having kept it going, but still replacements. The record surely is a bit underappreciated, but a lot of this was caused by the absolute zero promotion and too much fiddling about in the studio, not to mention no-Slash and no real radio hits etc. Good stuff anyway. I remember how excited I was when we progressively got to hear the individual new tunes prior to the release, be it leaks or Shackler in the video game. 

Does the record hold up? Or would you have preferred the '99 version, 2000 intensions or whatever else...
The Village stuff was obviously better in all sorts of aspects, but I don’t really care that much any more. This probably would have been worse if these leaks had happened just a year or two after the release. 
But if you’re asking about holding up in terms of the aspect of time, then it’s perfectly ok. I’ve never been a fan of this "it sounds dated now" nonsense regarding any music, Guns or not. I prefer Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason in the original version, even though they re-recorded it recently, trying to make it sound more modern. The sound of the 1987 is huge part of the record, and I don’t need any reeditions. CD sounds the way it does, and I’m perfectly fine with it. That is, when I do listen to it, which is, as I said, very seldom. 

What have you thought of the tracks we've since had officially and unofficially from CD2/3
Monsters is clearly the best one. Out of the 5 new Village tracks (I only count previously unheard material containing vocals), HS is pretty much top tier, while Perhaps would be somewhere in the middle. Silk Worms / Absurd should have been avoided and should have stayed in 2001, where it belongs. What sucks is that when they'll release a new album, this song probably will be there, i.e. taking up space of another song. I’m not saying it’s horrible, but I just could do without it. The General is not an easy song to listen to, but I quite like that one as well. 

Was Axl rail-roaded by sussy managers, was he the problem, was it the movement in the industry at the time away from big budget music making money, or was it a combo?
Had nothing to do with some major changes in the industry. It was probably money pricks and other leeches complicating things, in combination with Axl’s quirks, obstacles, and perfectionism (read Brain’s interview about how he was recording the drums in that church etc.), also various lawsuits, problems with managers, and the fact he had to replace every single member of the band. A lot of pages have been written about it already, and it definitely wasn’t one-sided either way. It was his doing plus many other circumstances. 

The 2001/2002 era sucked in many ways – Axl looking and sounding weird, the band looking like a circus, the album nowhere near to be seen ("soon" wasn’t the word), cancellations of gigs and then the whole tour –, but I did like one aspect, which was the mystery, the enigmatic shroud around the band and particularly Axl, where nobody in the public knew what was going on or what would happen, and everyone was expecting this mysterious album to emerge at any time. Axl didn't do many interviews and generally stayed out of the public eye for most of the time. That was pretty cool.
Too bad he's kept the non-communication till these days, where it’s definitely not cool any longer, even though it’s understandable that he's butt-hurt from the bad experience surrounding the CD era and doesn’t want to promise anything. I’m not asking him to do that, but perhaps some middle ground would be advisable. 

There’s obviously way more I could write on this topic, like many others, but I’ll just leave it at this...

Edit: The biggest shame is they didn't release TIL with that Axl's vocals from the Brain remix. Best Axl I've heard, ever. 

Away to read this properly on the train. Thanks for really taking the time to answers my prompted questions so in-depthly...I'm really interested in all in here's relationship with this piece at this point 15 years on...it's a good time to properly reflect and combine all our jagged thoughts over other posts throughout the years into one big appreciation or not @janrichmond...I wanna hear what folk dislike it, or more importantly what they would of wanted instead without changing the lineup, as that's what we had at the time...what would of meant great for you? 👍

2 minutes ago, jamillos said:

Dude, this is some horrible mix. You clearly haven't heard that whole fucking divine thing! 

Haha I'm not promoting the mix dude! Just the fact I wanted to link Brains original remix and that's the only thing I could find on YT that has the rasp take....so used this as the example. 😸

[janrichmond]

9 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

@janrichmond...I wanna hear what folk dislike it, or more importantly what they would of wanted instead without changing the lineup, as that's what we had at the time...what would of meant great for you? 👍

I don't like vocals and I don't like how 'busy' it sounds. I didn't buy it when it came out because I didn't know about it, I only heard it when I joined the forum in 2015. I didn't follow the band after Slash left so I have no memories of NuGuns. I watched the VMA performance when that was shown on TV, it made me sad

[colonizedmind]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

I don't like vocals and I don't like how 'busy' it sounds. I didn't buy it when it came out because I didn't know about it, I only heard it when I joined the forum in 2015. I didn't follow the band after Slash left so I have no memories of NuGuns. I watched the VMA performance when that was shown on TV, it made me sad

Ohhh VMA....that shit must be kinda like Voldemort around Axl. You don't mention it. Like Bridge School on here...except, WE mention it 😝

[janrichmond]

1 minute ago, colonizedmind said:

Ohhh VMA....that shit must be kinda like Voldemort around Axl. You don't mention it. Like Bridge School on here...except, WE mention it 😝

I don't know what Voldermort is, I don't know Star Wars.

I know Bridge School though, that's funny 

[Dummy]

It's great to listen to the village the blues demo while being high.

[Tom2112]

Heard about it a little after getting into gnr in 98 or 1999, would search for any info when I had internet access. Eventually I have up looking, then gnr reappeared in 2006 and from that lint forward I was pretty obsessed with the mythos of the record. Got the leaks etc.

When I heard it in full, I didn't really know what to think at first. I had to give it a few listens before I got into it. After a while it was on constant rotation. Never thought it was a perfect record, I could hear the over production, and some just not great songs... But overall I thought it was a really good record. 

15yrs later, it's been at least a year since I played front to back but I regularly listen to a number of songs from it, some daily. I think it holds up. I don't think anybody that didn't like it for legitimate musical reasons will ever change their minds, but the people that hated it because of loyalties to the AFD/UYI era are probably experiencing the record in a new light since 2016. I think most would still rank it as the worst record, but for me it's as enjoyable as any of their albums... Better than AFD? no, but also a completely different approach. It's not better than any of the other records but it's also not the worst record in the catalogue...it holds its own and is certainly more exciting musically than the recent releases.

[Voodoochild]

1 hour ago, colonizedmind said:

Yea...it gets a bit overshadowed because of the silly legal dispute which in turn meant it would be the only track not (and never) preformed live at the start of the Chinese 2009 tour....my word if one day Slash started playing that opening riff, it would be a bit crazy in here! 

There were some questionable decisions on the album mix too. But as far as being played live, I think it was simply because those screams were too damn high. Even in 2006/7, when Axl was really in his A-game, the song did not get played (and I think it was rehearsed pre-tour, from what I've been told back then). 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Voodoochild

[axljungle]

I remember a call from the music store the day before official release and go to the store to buy it. Then I went home and the first thing that I did was take this picture 

[username]

On the release day I took the day off from work (I was 24 at the time) to get it as soon as the store opened. It was a big disappointment when I got home, as almost every track that had previously leaked or been played live (which I think was 11 of the 14) was worse than the versions we'd heard at that point. Other than that the production was terrible. Especially the way they'd butchered Catcher and The Blues were depressing. Some of the unheard tracks were big letdowns too. I hated (and still hate) the vocals on the whinefest that is TIL and don't even get me started on Scraped. The Chinese Democracy album was a huge letdown for me. Which is sad, because the quality of the material in demo form was (and is) immense. Even the cover was pretty meh. The bike picture that had circulated for years and that you'd think "lol, that has to be faek. They'd never use that". 

Edited November 24, 2023 by username

[gavgnr]

I remember waiting for the album for years, listening to the leaks over and over. When the release day came, I went to a local supermarket and picked up a copy of the shelf. I felt deflated. I loved the songs, but the album should’ve come out in 2006. I put the album back on the shelf and left the store.

Then I got home and the copy I’d pre-ordered online was waiting for me on my doorstep 

I love the record.

[Voodoochild]

About Riad's drums, check this guy playing Rock Band perfectly. This is some serious awesome stuff (thanks to Josh Freese, even though Brain rerecorded it).

 

[WhazUp]

Man it is crazy it has been so long!  I was around 16ish when the album came out, I remember going to Best Buy and getting two CD copies (one I still have in shrink wrap as a memento) and the vinyl.  The album is a nice snapshot of 2008 for me so I look at this anniversary from a nostailgic lens

Chinese does have its flaws to me, but I still enjoy it overall.  That said some songs (SOD, CD, IRS, CITR) I tend to gravititate towards the Village Session rough mixes of more nowadays, they just seem more organic sounding and meatier on the low end

[Its Tino]

Being 22 in 2008, CD generally turned me off initially. Scraped was my first favorite track! I had little to no interest in Axl continuously singing over piano about how his exes made him incredibly sad waaaaaaaaaah. I liked the title track but I did not have the patience for the intro. Same for Rhiad. I hated those offensive WHOMPS in Shackler’s.

Fast forward 3 years and I had a new coworker who loved GNR and he insisted I re-listen start to finish. Then it clicked. 
 

Minus the CD intro, Rhiad intro and Catcher being so busy, I put CD on my top 10 fav albums. I really enjoy it. even the WOMP WOMP WAA in Shacklers. Thankfully Catcher demo leaked in 19 and I can finally enjoy the good song that it is. 

My ideal version of CD would be as it was before BBF joined, so 2004. No offense, great player but CD didn’t need new solos, additional solos or addition fills. 
 

 

[F*ck Fear]

28 minutes ago, Its Tino said:

Being 22 in 2008, CD generally turned me off initially. Scraped was my first favorite track! I had little to no interest in Axl continuously singing over piano about how his exes made him incredibly sad waaaaaaaaaah. I liked the title track but I did not have the patience for the intro. Same for Rhiad. I hated those offensive WHOMPS in Shackler’s.

Fast forward 3 years and I had a new coworker who loved GNR and he insisted I re-listen start to finish. Then it clicked. 
 

Minus the CD intro, Rhiad intro and Catcher being so busy, I put CD on my top 10 fav albums. I really enjoy it. even the WOMP WOMP WAA in Shacklers. Thankfully Catcher demo leaked in 19 and I can finally enjoy the good song that it is. 

My ideal version of CD would be as it was before BBF joined, so 2004. No offense, great player but CD didn’t need new solos, additional solos or addition fills. 
 

 

I'm torn on this.

One on hand I absolutely love the earliest version from the locker leaks with thart killer bass line from Tommy Stinson!

However, I also love Ron's fretless work on the verses.

[Free Bird]

4 hours ago, janrichmond said:

I don't like vocals and I don't like how 'busy' it sounds. I didn't buy it when it came out because I didn't know about it, I only heard it when I joined the forum in 2015. I didn't follow the band after Slash left so I have no memories of NuGuns. I watched the VMA performance when that was shown on TV, it made me sad

Yeah that was a very disturbing moment in my life 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Free Bird

[colonizedmind]

But guys....But guys!!! Seriously guys! The real question is. Did anyone...I mean anyone get a friggen Dr.Pepper? Or know of anyone that did? I mean it was only Slash that was meant to not get one, eh 😸 with Axl sharing...

Axl even sued them, didn't he? I bet that was sharp lesson in careful what you tweet to the world, as a put down 🫣

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

Love the record. My 2nd (or technically 3rd) favorite after the UYI Twins.

Still wish the '99 record had gotten out though. Guess it would have been a lot more like the "OMG" demo/single- but I think that was the purest version of Axl's vision. Would have been cool IMHO for Axl to push a few aggressive industrial records out with Finck/Freese, etc., and then perhaps pivoted back to a regrouping a lot sooner. Wasn't in the cards though. Still very pleased w/what we got.

Lastly, as far as enduring legacy, I'd say Chinese will be to Axl/Guns as Fantasia is to Walt Disney 80+ yrs later. A bit of a curious, "purple unicorn" in a celebrated career- but without question acknowledged as containing some brilliant work (particularly the guitar performances ironically enough). Guess our kids will know for sure...

Edited November 25, 2023 by AXL_N_DIZZY

[Trin9498]

I’ll never understand the love for Catcher. I think it’s an overrated song. I don’t really listen to anything on CD but if I did, CITR is a skipper. 

[jacdaniel]

When I first heard it, I thought it was pretty shit compared to previous Guns albums and even Contraband. 
 

Haven’t listened much in the last decade except when they play the songs live.

[Voodoochild]

7 hours ago, AXL_N_DIZZY said:

Love the record. My 2nd (or technically 3rd) favorite after the UYI Twins.

Still wish the '99 record had gotten out though. Guess it would have been a lot more like the "OMG" demo/single- but I think that was the purest version of Axl's vision. Would have been cool IMHO for Axl to push a few aggressive industrial records out with Finck/Freese, etc., and then perhaps pivoted back to a regrouping a lot sooner. Wasn't in the cards though. Still very pleased w/what we got.

Lastly, as far as enduring legacy, I'd say Chinese will be to Axl/Guns as Fantasia is to Walt Disney 80+ yrs later. A bit of a curious, "purple unicorn" in a celebrated career- but without question acknowledged as containing some brilliant work (particularly the guitar performances ironically enough). Guess our kids will know for sure...

I think OMG wasn't the purest Axl's vision because the mix was terrible and it didn't have Robin as he intended. I think the Village version of CD is by far the closest thing, with Freese on Drums, Robin on most of the songs and with Bucket already getting some stuff. And to me that wasn't really aggressive industrial at all. In fact, most of the other instrumental demos were much more traditional guitar riff rock based than some of the songs that made up on CD.  

[Gordon Comstock]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:43 AM, BangoSkank said:

I think Axl gets an unfair amount of shit for how long it took. He thought it was virtually done in 2000 and we know the locker leaks that he was basically right. And if you've read Chinese Whispers there are multiple accounts of people coming in and just going, "add this, add this, here's a new producer, add this." And then what came out in 2008 was super similar to what was done in 2000 with just a lot more layers on it.

I wrote a whole essay about this, but I honestly think if he just labelled it a solo project, the public and critics would have been a lot more receptive. I also think the label would have been less apprehensive and pushy about making it sound a certain way. Yes, Axl is a crazy perfectionist in the studio with bizarre work habits, but again, it was virtually done in 2000. He's made it clear that he would never have labeled solo, so it is what it is and what's done is done.

My personal take? I like the album a lot still. My two beefs with it are that there are just enormous amounts of layers of each song that it gets a bit convoluted at times. ALSO, I wish it was heavier. Axl was very into industrial metal at the time and "Better," "Shackler's," even the title track show this and fucking rule. And listening to everything that's leaked you can see he had so much more in this direction. I don't know, I wish we had an Axl solo album of:

Chinese Democracy

Shackler's Revenge

Better

Silkworms

Oh My God

Dummy

There Was A Time

Devious Bastard

Monsters

The General

Prostitute 

It wouldn't be for everybody, but it would be for some people, and I would be one of them, and man, would I have loved it.

 

My ideal CD and CD2 would've looked something like this:

CD1: New GNR (2006)

Chinese Democracy
Better
The Blues
If The World
There Was A Time
Rhiad
Perhaps
Madagascar
Hardschool
I.R.S.
Prostitute

CD2: Dark/Heavy GNR (2007)

Sorry
Shackler's Revenge
Scraped (Lies They Tell)
Catcher In The Rye
State Of Grace
Going Down
This I Love
Absurd
The General
Soul Monster

[Its Tino]

On 11/24/2023 at 3:58 PM, F*ck Fear said:

I'm torn on this.

One on hand I absolutely love the earliest version from the locker leaks with thart killer bass line from Tommy Stinson!

However, I also love Ron's fretless work on the verses.

I really don’t like fretless work. Big turnoff for me.