Does the reunion mean we’ll never hear CD2?

[rocknroll41]

10 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I see it differently. The reunion gives Rose an even greater incentive to submerge himself more thoroughly into the status as a ''legacy act'' à la Billy Joel, a process which began circa 2011. Since that year we have gradually seen Rose reposition himself, from the unfulfilled and frustrated studio bound persona of early Nugnr, into ''imitation 1987'', a purveyor of Kiss-esque corporate mementos. The only difference between ''The Ashba Years'' and today, is that there are now stadia and immense amounts of money involved, a far cry from the embarrassing morale-sapping casinos of late-period Nugnr. Pursuing the legacy option is now economically fulfilling. 

Things like new material are now annoyances, reminders of Chinese Democracy's frustrated gestation; albums are things band members quarrel over; albums are things producers and record labels argue about; albums expose one to artistic ridicule. Why then (so the rational goes) even bother with albums when there are crowds of affluent casuals willing to chuck money at your feet for the ''hits''? 

The lazier option has far more benefits.

I hate to admit it, but this is a valid point.

[ShadowOfTheWave]

We know Atlas Shrugged exists, BBF mentioned putting a solo on it and critics even reviewed it. Also, Axl was very specific describing both the vocals and guitar work of Soul Monster. As for the rest, it could be just rough drafts of unfinished material.

[rocknroll41]

Just now, ShadowOfTheWave said:

We know Atlas Shrugged exists, BBF mentioned putting a solo on it and critics even reviewed it. Also, Axl was very specific describing both the vocals and guitar work of Soul Monster. As for the rest, it could be just rough drafts of unfinished material.

Im sure like a handful of songs are complete with lyrics and all (like the ones you mentioned), but probably not a whole album's worth. I feel like we would've heard more from it by now if that were the case.

[DeadSlash]

I think the cleaned up SOYL + Slash and Duff willing to make some CD songs their own on a live stage are indicators that we will see CDII.  They see the money in it, they know they are hot and there is a vault of songs finished or close to finished that would take minimal effort to "re-complete" with the current lineup.  There is no question in my mind we will see CDII, it won't be called that, but it's coming.

[Chunder Monkey]

I think as they get older stuff that was considered "not as good" starts to look stronger as age takes it's toll. 

You see this a lot with deceased artists. Their B and C sides suddenly have a lot of value when there's never going to be anything newer.

To some extent we see it already.

I'm really excited over the 93 videos that are leaking. People are enjoying Shadow of Your Love - a song that was considered a B track back in 1991 but now in a world without new stuff from Axl and Slash is comparatively exciting.

Think about how good it is to hear Axl sounding strong on Shadow when you listen to it today, vs how normal it just sounded in the 1990s.

If there's stuff in the vault that'a half good, especially if there's stuff where Axl is strong, I think it will eventually come out just because it would be easier than starting fresh in old age. 

[Jordan Rose]

It's just so mindblowingly sad to think that the Hammerstein shows were 12 years ago this month and were preceded by leaks of Twat and Better. 

To all the people saying there aren't (m)any finished songs: if you go read Chinese Whispers there is more than enough info from enough people who were there to say that there are a lot. The record company were played the second record. When the leaks were coming out and the camp were calling them "demos" to downplay criticism they weren't demos, just different versions from different eras/producers/players. I mean, for fuck's sake there was a finished record in 2000. 

As for his estate, I just hope he's paid attention to what has happened to MJ & Prince and made iron clad provisions for whatever his wishes are. Preferably not to have everything destroyed. 

One thing that Diesel mentioned about putting new material out there was dealing with criticism and reviews and I always thought that in the 2008 chats he seemed extremely level-headed about it. "Some was favourable, some was a bloodbath.." etc. That doesn't mean he didn't have a meltdown at the time or whatever. But I don't see it as a primary factor. He's proud of CD, he played most of it at the last show. 

It just seems like he's a completely different person to the guy in 1992 who said playing Appetite was "like jacking off" and who wanted to make all these different record. 

 

[Towelie]

7 minutes ago, Jordan Rose said:

It's just so mindblowingly sad to think that the Hammerstein shows were 12 years ago this month and were preceded by leaks of Twat and Better. 

To all the people saying there aren't (m)any finished songs: if you go read Chinese Whispers there is more than enough info from enough people who were there to say that there are a lot. The record company were played the second record. When the leaks were coming out and the camp were calling them "demos" to downplay criticism they weren't demos, just different versions from different eras/producers/players. I mean, for fuck's sake there was a finished record in 2000. 

As for his estate, I just hope he's paid attention to what has happened to MJ & Prince and made iron clad provisions for whatever his wishes are. Preferably not to have everything destroyed. 

One thing that Diesel mentioned about putting new material out there was dealing with criticism and reviews and I always thought that in the 2008 chats he seemed extremely level-headed about it. "Some was favourable, some was a bloodbath.." etc. That doesn't mean he didn't have a meltdown at the time or whatever. But I don't see it as a primary factor. He's proud of CD, he played most of it at the last show. 

It just seems like he's a completely different person to the guy in 1992 who said playing Appetite was "like jacking off" and who wanted to make all these different record. 

 

So if it isn't fear of criticism, why isn't he putting out new music? There has to be a reason why he doesn't ever want to release new music with GNR.

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, Chunder Monkey said:

I think as they get older stuff that was considered "not as good" starts to look stronger as age takes it's toll. 

You see this a lot with deceased artists. Their B and C sides suddenly have a lot of value when there's never going to be anything newer.

To some extent we see it already.

I'm really excited over the 93 videos that are leaking. People are enjoying Shadow of Your Love - a song that was considered a B track back in 1991 but now in a world without new stuff from Axl and Slash is comparatively exciting.

Think about how good it is to hear Axl sounding strong on Shadow when you listen to it today, vs how normal it just sounded in the 1990s.

If there's stuff in the vault that'a half good, especially if there's stuff where Axl is strong, I think it will eventually come out just because it would be easier than starting fresh in old age. 

Agreed.  This is exactly why I think a "new" record is simply going to cull all of the old unused tracks that have finished vocals from Axl. 

These guys have a giant shadow looming over them - their 20 year old selves. People have seen the videos and heard the albums for 30 years. 50+ year old Axl and Slash can't live up to the memories of fans. They didn't age in front of us as a band like Metallica. Any new record will face cognitive dissonance from the buying public. Might as well tip the scales in their favor and find unreleased stuff from their prime to keep the illusion of continuity post-Illusions.

Which is fair play really - using older material isn't a knock against their integrity. Slash is still a potent force, but these guys peaked over a decade ago. It makes sense for them to go back and reuse all the scraps on the cutting room floor. 

[Tom2112]

39 minutes ago, Towelie said:

So if it isn't fear of criticism, why isn't he putting out new music? There has to be a reason why he doesn't ever want to release new music with GNR.

I think it's what he considers good timing.

There is the possibility that he doesn't think the "finished" CD II is the right next gnr record anymore; even though he loves the material. 

Would love to know for sure but no interviews and when people meet the man (rarely) they don't ask about new albums, it's about "can I have a selfie".

[RONIN]

17 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I see it differently. The reunion gives Rose an even greater incentive to submerge himself more thoroughly into the status as a ''legacy act'' à la Billy Joel, a process which began circa 2011. Since that year we have gradually seen Rose reposition himself, from the unfulfilled and frustrated studio bound persona of early Nugnr, into ''imitation 1987'', a purveyor of Kiss-esque corporate mementos. The only difference between ''The Ashba Years'' and today, is that there are now stadia and immense amounts of money involved, a far cry from the embarrassing morale-sapping casinos of late-period Nugnr. Pursuing the legacy option is now economically fulfilling. 

Things like new material are now annoyances, reminders of Chinese Democracy's frustrated gestation; albums are things band members quarrel over; albums are things producers and record labels argue about; albums expose one to artistic ridicule. Why then (so the rational goes) even bother with albums when there are crowds of affluent casuals willing to chuck money at your feet for the ''hits''? 

The lazier option has far more benefits.

In theory, you're correct, however...

New album = new money grab stadium tour = new yachts for Duff + alimony payments to Perla + Axl paying his leeches and supporting multiple generations of their offspring.

If Axl remains in legacy act mode, they'll be downgraded to an arena act (which they already are in America). For a cash hungry organization, this would be sub-optimal.

[EvanG]

12 minutes ago, RONIN said:

These guys have a giant shadow looming over them - their 20 year old selves. People have seen the videos and heard the albums for 30 years. 50+ year old Axl and Slash can't live up to the memories of fans. They didn't age in front of us as a band like Metallica. Any new record will face cognitive dissonance from the buying public. Might as well tip the scales in their favor and find unreleased stuff from their prime to keep the illusion of continuity post-Illusions.

I've said this many times, even a new album with the AFD lineup won't be able to live up to the memory and nostalgia that most people have been clinging on to for the last three decades. It's simply impossible.

But does Axl really care? I've never seen him as the kind of person who wouldn't do something because it might disappoint someone. So might that be the reason why he's releasing no music? Because he knows it will never be as successful as back in the day? Maybe, but I always thought that as an artist he had more integrity than that. But I've been wrong before.

[RONIN]

9 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I've said this many times, even a new album with the AFD lineup won't be able to live up to the memory and nostalgia that most people have been clinging on to for the last three decades. It's simply impossible.

But does Axl really care? I've never seen him as the kind of person who wouldn't do something because it might disappoint someone. So might that be the reason why he's releasing no music? Because he knows it will never be as successful as back in the day? Maybe, but I always thought that as an artist he had more integrity than that. But I've been wrong before.

He has been forced to care now. I think the failure of Chinese Democracy and the runaway success of the reunion gave him a reality check as to what the masses want from him. Nostalgia. Reliving their youth and the glory days of GnR. 

Even if his integrity says otherwise, the commercial prospects right now of being a legacy act are so stratospheric that he has probably accepted the situation for what it is. At this stage of the game, money > art. Happens to every great musician.

You ever wonder why Axl never released an official video or did a magazine cover with the new lineup for the last 15 years?  He knew all of this years ago.

I suspect that's why nu-guns always felt like such a half-hearted effort - he didn't buy into it, not completely anyway. I think more than anyone in the band, Axl is really feeling the effects of aging and being past his prime. I don't think it's a coincidence that we're seeing him promoted in the current tour with a lot of AFD/Illusion era imagery (moreso than Duff/Slash). For the general public, Axl's last few GNR videos were November Rain, Estranged, and Since I Don't Have You. Imagine following that up with a new video where his hair is thinning and he's 30 lbs overweight with neck jowls. For all his bravado, Axl is just a human being like us with a fragile ego. As you said, it's impossible to live up to the memories of the past. 

This is the double edged sword of leaving the scene in your prime (the classic lineup). Returning virtually guarantees a letdown.

[killuridols]

5 hours ago, RONIN said:

This is the double edged sword of leaving the scene in your prime (the classic lineup). Returning virtually guarantees a letdown.

And for being stubborn, not fixing things with old lineup sooner than later.

This reunion should have happened 10-15 years ago and he would have had plenty of time to recover, maybe not to the point of catching up with his 1993 image, but coming back with more time to make up for the lost time.

[Chunder Monkey]

10 hours ago, killuridols said:

 

This reunion should have happened 10-15 years ago 

 

I can't help but think how it would have been if it had happened around 2006.

Axl was still a legitimate monster frontman in both appearance and vocal skills in that era. He has his moments today (ac/dc) but you can see overall its harder than it used to be for him (fair enough we're all human) but - yeah it blows the mind to think how insane all those 2006 era shows would have been with the reunion line up.

But I believe now the band can go into a mostly legacy act but one that does occasional releases. Like Ac/Dc and Aerosmith. Like basically a hits tour - but with a new album (or for GNR maybe even just a new song or two) every 5-10 years as an excuse to freshen up the branding every so often. The live show is the hits plus 2 or 3 tracks at most of whatever the modern album of that tour is.

So given he has a of songs around - some of which have vocals from 1999 or 2006 era and times when his voice was very strong - it would make a lot of sense to add the current line up to them and put out a song or EP or something in a few years when they need to freshen up the market.

 

[vempirechrist]

Well..originally the follow ups were supposed to be out in 2010 & 2012.

So finished tracks must exist of some sort, but Axl being Axl will continue to tweak and tweak tracks towards his vision of perfection.

I'd actually rather not have Slash and Duff touch these songs.

Had it not been for everyone adding their flare and shit..we might have seen stuff sooner. (I think).

Hell, in terms of "new" stuff..I'd even settle for the Brain remixes at this point.

[DieselDaisy]

On 5/10/2018 at 12:24 PM, RONIN said:

In theory, you're correct, however...

New album = new money grab stadium tour = new yachts for Duff + alimony payments to Perla + Axl paying his leeches and supporting multiple generations of their offspring.

If Axl remains in legacy act mode, they'll be downgraded to an arena act (which they already are in America). For a cash hungry organization, this would be sub-optimal.

I think Rose would take a marginal drop in ticket sales provided it keeps him out of a studio and there is a fair bit of cash flowing in. There was always going to be a drop in interest regardless after the initial areas had been played and the reunion hyperbole had dissipated. Billy Joel - what sized venues does he play? He seems to have successfully carried on as a live act despite repudiating writing and recording.

With Slash it'll always be at a minimum arenas at (slightly) reduced rates. Slash will keep Rose from playing casinos again - he'll never sink that low again.

[DieselDaisy]

On 5/10/2018 at 11:20 AM, Jordan Rose said:

It's just so mindblowingly sad to think that the Hammerstein shows were 12 years ago this month and were preceded by leaks of Twat and Better. 

To all the people saying there aren't (m)any finished songs: if you go read Chinese Whispers there is more than enough info from enough people who were there to say that there are a lot. The record company were played the second record. When the leaks were coming out and the camp were calling them "demos" to downplay criticism they weren't demos, just different versions from different eras/producers/players. I mean, for fuck's sake there was a finished record in 2000. 

As for his estate, I just hope he's paid attention to what has happened to MJ & Prince and made iron clad provisions for whatever his wishes are. Preferably not to have everything destroyed. 

One thing that Diesel mentioned about putting new material out there was dealing with criticism and reviews and I always thought that in the 2008 chats he seemed extremely level-headed about it. "Some was favourable, some was a bloodbath.." etc. That doesn't mean he didn't have a meltdown at the time or whatever. But I don't see it as a primary factor. He's proud of CD, he played most of it at the last show. 

It just seems like he's a completely different person to the guy in 1992 who said playing Appetite was "like jacking off" and who wanted to make all these different record. 

 

It is a fair point, but whatever it is that has changed him, he has changed!

1/ During the Illusion period he wanted to ''bury Appetite'', and the whole ambitious nature of those twin albums reflects that.

2/ During early Nugnr (about 1999 -2003) he wanted to produce eclectic ''trilogies'' with avant garde weirdos.

Now...

Totally different guy!

It is rather like Trent Reznor morphing into Gene Simmons!

[Jordan Rose]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is a fair point, but whatever it is that has changed him, he has changed!

1/ During the Illusion period he wanted to ''bury Appetite'', and the whole ambitious nature of those twin albums reflects that.

2/ During early Nugnr (about 1999 -2003) he wanted to produce eclectic ''trilogies'' with avant garde weirdos.

Now...

Totally different guy!

It is rather like Trent Reznor morphing into Gene Simmons!

Quite. There was that really long 2002 statement where he said the tour would evolve over the next years as more songs were added until it became largely new material with old stuff rotated in and out. And the London Docklands Uncle Axl speech he called us cunts for constantly referenceing. 

[Towelie]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 1:22 PM, RONIN said:

 

This is the double edged sword of leaving the scene in your prime (the classic lineup). Returning virtually guarantees a letdown.

I'm sorry, but that's just an excuse. Kate Bush returned to touring a few years back after over 30 years and it was hailed as a major triumph. I was at one of the shows and she killed it. One of the best concerts I've ever been to.

The reason Axl struggles live is because he hasn't adapted. He stubbornly goes out there, singing the same old songs, in the same key, sounding awful. I don't know if he's in denial about his age, but the fact that he thinks he can pull off shit the same way he did in his 20s/30s is absurd. He just can't do it. Things would be so much easier for him if he was to a) release new music which he could actually pull off live and b) be more selective about which old songs he wants to play and play about with new arrangements.

Do a stripped back acoustic version of SCOM and Civil War and change the key. There are things he could do, but he just continues on doing the same songs, performed in the same way, to diminishing results. How the man has the gall to get up there in good conscience and sound that bad I don't know. You'd think he be embarrassed. He is truly dreadful in many live shows now. It used to be just the odd bad song here and there, now it's the majority of the songs the majority of the time.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Towelie

[Jw224]

On 10/05/2018 at 12:09 PM, RONIN said:

Agreed.  This is exactly why I think a "new" record is simply going to cull all of the old unused tracks that have finished vocals from Axl. 

These guys have a giant shadow looming over them - their 20 year old selves. People have seen the videos and heard the albums for 30 years. 50+ year old Axl and Slash can't live up to the memories of fans. They didn't age in front of us as a band like Metallica. Any new record will face cognitive dissonance from the buying public. Might as well tip the scales in their favor and find unreleased stuff from their prime to keep the illusion of continuity post-Illusions.

Which is fair play really - using older material isn't a knock against their integrity. Slash is still a potent force, but these guys peaked over a decade ago. It makes sense for them to go back and reuse all the scraps on the cutting room floor. 

I don't mind them reusing instrumental parts but I'll be kinda mad if the vocals aren't new.

[amacfantasy]

Ever since this whole reunion thing happened on one side I was worried we might never hear all this "lost" Chinese Democracy era material but on the other hand it always seemed like a good opportunity to get it out there, albeit maybe updated or altered some. Which quite frankly is what had been happening to this material for years likely before anyway. I mean think about it whats the hardest thing to do really as an established, old, former great artist ? Creating all new material, being creative can be tough at that point. Well if Axl has all this really thought out material whether it be musically, lyrically, or both whey not expedite the album making process by just using that ? Of course I can see different issues with this that I have no idea how much they would be an issue. Like would Duff/Slash be ok with that ? who knows but on paper it sounds good. And I'm not even considering that potential old material Slash/Axl/Duff may have worked on lightly in the lost 1993-1995 years. Post Illusion tour the way I read information thru the years was the real breakup or end of original GNR though it's my understanding for maybe a couple years after there was some light cooperation here and there so maybe there is a song or two of ideas stemming from those couple years ? maybe. One thing is for sure though there are loads of CD era songs they could use, so fingers crossed we here them in some form some day.

On a side note it's crazy to think the 2006 comeback really way 12 years ago now the leaks at the start of the year and later, the Eddie Trunk radio thing, the hammerstein show with mystery new guitarist. The surprise appearance on the 2006 MTV music awards just to say "Do you know where the fu$% you are". Man good times with so much hope for the GNR future.

[Propaganda]

I think we will see at least the 3 best songs from CD Era but re-recorded with Slash and Duff's parts, with no trace of Bumblefoot, Ashba, Buckethead or Robin. Completely re-recorded parts.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Propaganda

[betterman]

I guess the answer to this is NO then  

If we get completed songs (featuring Slash and Duff )of f.ex. Zodiac or Monster soul etc.. Do you think we will ever hear the intended versions for CD2, will those songs be leaked somewhere down the road..?

[oldnews]

the only 'new' songs we have are from the Chinese Democracy era so I'm guessing CD2 is coming soooon zzzzz

[itsprettytiedup]

On 5/9/2018 at 4:14 PM, RussTCB said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again now: I truly don't believe we'll hear any further songs from the Chinese Democracy sessions.

lol how much has changed now we're talking third even a fourth release of this songs as demos