Writing credits and publishing shares for GN'R songs

[Blackstar]

UPDATE October 2023: Added writing credits for Perhaps and The General (November: information on Axl's percentages + more precise percentages for Oh My God, Shackler's Revenge, Sorry and Scraped from CMRRA database).

UPDATE August 2023: Added data found in Universal's database regarding Axl's shares, so now there is more precise information on the credits for Absurd/Hard Skool, UYI albums, Shadow Of Your Love and Crash Diet (I already had Axl's exact shares on AFD/Lies and CD in the original post, as they were easy to figure out from everyone else's shares), as well for songs co-written by Chris Weber. I also added information about the Hollywood Rose songs that were included in The Roots Of Guns N' Roses. Will update again when there's more information about the writing credits for Perhaps.
 

***

Note: this post has been updated a few times since first published in order to include feedback from comments, correct some mistakes and add more information and clarification.

Introduction

I had a thorough look at the online repertories of ASCAP, BMI, GMR (Global Music Rights) and SESAC, which are PRO's (Performing Rights Organizations) that collect royalties on behalf of songwriters and their publishers, so they list all the musicians who receive songwriting royalties for each song.
These data are the result of the way a band has decided to split the publishing rights/royalties (i.e. royalties from songwriting) between the members and may not be identical to to the writing credits in an album's liner notes: for example, a band member may not be listed in the liner notes as one of the writers of a particular song, but may be entitled to royalties for it; or the songs may be collectively credited to the band, but in reality not all members get an equal publishing share for them.

GN'R members and outside co-writers are represented by different PRO's:

* SESAC: Axl.
* GMR: Slash, Duff.
* ASCAP: Izzy, Steven, Matt, Dizzy, Paul Tobias, Tommy Stinson, Robin Finck, Chris Pitman, West Arkeen (estate), Chris Weber, Dave Lank.
* BMI: Josh Freese, Buckethead, Brain, Pete Scaturro, Caram Costanzo, Del James.

ASCAP, BMI and GMR report the percentage they control over other PRO's; e.g. for a song listed as co-written by Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven, ASCAP reports the percentage it controls, which corresponds to the combined shares of Izzy and Steven, and the same goes for GMR in regards to Slash and Duff's combined shares.
SESAC doesn't provide this information, which would be Axl's share (edit April 2024: SESAC has started providing this information now, too). However, there is another source for that: the database of Universal (which has Axl's publishing) reports the percentage it controls. Universal also has Chris Weber's publishing as far as GN'R songs are concerned, so that makes possible to determine which portion of the share controlled by ASCAP is his, as well as Timo Kaltio's publishing (he's not on ASCAP though, so it doesn't help as much). There are also the databases of PRO's that represent music rights in other countries (e.g. CMRRA in Canada and SACEM in France), which may provide more details about the publishing shares in combination with the main databases listed above, as songwriters that are in different PRO's in the US may be in the same PRO of another country.

1. Appetite For Destruction and GN'R Lies

In the albums' liner notes all original songs are credited collectively to "Guns N' Roses" and, wherever the case, to additional songwriters (West Arkeen on It's So Easy, Chris Weber on Anything Goes, Reckless Life and Move To The City) *

The information in the databases confirms what we know from other sources about how the publishing was split between the members: Axl 25%, Slash, Izzy and Duff 20% each, and Steven 15%.

More specifically:

1) For all original songs with no outside writers: ASCAP (Izzy + Steven): 35%; GMR (Slash + Duff): 40%; Universal (Axl): 25%

2) In the case of songs with additional songwriters, as expected, the band members' shares are decreased:

- It's So Easy: 17,5% Axl; 28% Slash + Duff; 54% Izzy+Steven+West Arkeen.

- Anything Goes, Reckless Life and Move To The City: 22.5% Axl; 36% Slash + Duff; 31.5% Izzy + Steven; 10% Chris Weber.

* Note: Live ?!*@ Like a Suicide, which was later included in GN'R Lies, listed individual writers: Axl, Izzy, Slash and Chris Weber for Reckless Life; Izzy, Chris Weber and "DJ" (real name Daniel Nicolson) for Move To The City. However, as evident from the data above, the arrangement changed later with these songs being credited collectively to GN'R and all members (plus Chris Weber) having a publishing share.

2. Use Your Illusion I and II

Unlike Appetite and Lies, the UYI liner notes originally listed specific writers for each song (e.g. Axl and Izzy for You Could Be Mine, Slash and Axl for Locomotive, etc.). *

However, those credits don't reflect the way the publishing for each song is split: according to the PRO's, all four "main" members (Axl, Slash, Izzy  and Duff) get a fixed percentage for each original song written entirely by the band (Matt and Dizzy get a small cut). Only this time the way the shares were split  was more complicated compared to the shares for AFD and Lies songs, so  the percentages are not round figures (according to Slash's book, that  happened because they had to take into account a small share for Matt - and I  guess Dizzy, too - as well as because of the many outside writers like  West Arkeen, Del James, etc.).

For example, although only Axl is credited for writing November Rain in the album liner notes, GMR (Slash and Duff) controls 47.68% of the song, ASCAP (Izzy) 24.26% and Universal reports 26.27% for Axl - and these shares apply to every original UYI song  that doesn't have additional writers (the decimals in the ASCAP shares  differ slightly from song to song - it may have to do with the publishers). The remaining percentages are obviously Matt's and Dizzy's small shares.

The formula they seemingly used was: first they determined who wrote what (ie. the writers of each songs that we read in the liner notes) and  the percentages of each one's contributions to each song (e.g. Don't  Cry could be 50% Axl and 50% Izzy); then they calculated all that together and  determined each one's shares in the album as a whole (at least the songs that didn't have outside writers), so e.g. Izzy has a share around 24.5% for his overall contributions to the albums; and then they applied those percentages to each song.

So, the fact that, for example, Slash wasn't credited in the liner notes as a co-writer for November Rain and Estranged may affect his share in the albums as a whole, but doesn't mean that he doesn't get royalties for these songs (like when streamed or played on the radio).

* Note: In the 2022 reissue of UYI, the liner notes reflect the real credits that can be found in the PRO's databases, so all members are credited for all songs.

More specifically:

1) Original songs with no outside writers: 26.27% Axl; 24.5% Izzy; 47.7% Slash + Duff; 1.5% Matt + Dizzy.

2) Songs co-written by outside writers:

* Right Next Door To Hell: 50.84% Axl + Timo Kaltio; 32.52% Slash + Duff; 16.18% Izzy. That leaves a small share of about 0,5% for Matt and Dizzy.

* Bad Obsession: 18.38% Axl; 33.38% Slash + Duff; 47.1% Izzy + West Arkeen; 1.14% Matt + Dizzy.

* Back Off Bitch: 21.01% Axl; 38.84% Slash + Duff; 40,15 Izzy + Paul Tobias (+ Matt + Dizzy).

* The Garden: 5.26% Axl; 9.54% Slash + Duff; 54.84% Izzy + West Arkeen. So the remaining 30.36% includes the shares of Del James, Matt and Dizzy (BMI doesn't provide info on Del James' share, but it's safe to assume that it's about 29%).

* Don't Damn Me: 21.89% Axl; 40.44% Slash + Duff; 20.22% Izzy; 16.66% Dave Lank. That leaves about 0.8% for Matt and Dizzy.  

* Yesterdays: 8.67% Axl; 15.72% Slash + Duff; 68% Izzy + West Arkeen + Billy McCloud. So the remaining 8.92 includes the shares of Del James, Matt and Dizzy (again BMI doesn't provide info on Del's share).

3. Ain't Goin' Down (pinball machine)

25% Axl; 50% Slash + Duff; 25% Izzy.  

4. Shadow Of Your Love

24.38% Axl. The rest is divided between Slash, Izzy, Duff, Steven and Paul Tobias (the databases don't provide percentages).

5. Appetite For Destruction 2018 reissue ("Locked and Loaded") - "new" songs

* The Plague, New Work Tune and Ain't Goin' Down No More (instrumental): 25% Axl; 37.48% Izzy + Steven; the remaining 37.62 is apparently Slash's and Duff's combined share, who are also listed as writers (GMR doesn't provide info).

Izzy's and Steven's combined share appears to be slightly higher than for Appetite/Lies songs, but it might be a mistake on ASCAP's database.

6. West Arkeen songs/"Hell House demos"

* Crash Diet: West Arkeen, Axl, Del James and Daniel Clarke are listed as writers: 31% West Arkeen; 38% Axl. No info on the other percentages.

* Bring It Down Home: West Arkeen and Axl are listed as writers. 50% West Arkeen; 50% Axl.

* Too Much Too Soon: West Arkeen and Duff are listed as writers. 90% West Arkeen; 10% Duff.

* Sentimental Movie: West Arkeen, Duff and Del James are listed as writers. 75% West Arkeen; 25% Duff + Del James (the databases don't provide info).

* Just Another Sunday: No information at all (most likely because it's not on the West Arkeen tape).

7. Hollywood Rose songs (The Roots Of Guns N' Roses album)

* Killing Time and Rocker: 50% Axl; 50% Chris Weber.

Interestingly Izzy doesn't seem to have a share, although he probably co-wrote those songs. Maybe he didn't care to pursue it (but apparently Axl did).

8. Chinese Democracy + Oh My God

Like on UYI, the credits in the album's liner notes list specific writers for each song. But, in this case, the publishing is also split on each song separately. However, the album credits don't completely coincide with the names found in the repertories: in some cases, the latter list additional names. The are also some differences between the credits in the liner notes in the regular album artwork ("bicycle" cover) and the ones in the alternate artwork ("red hand" and "grenade" covers), which suggests that there were probably mistakes in the liner notes.. So the data provided by the databases about the percentages they control on each CD song may be actually informative, at least to an extent, about each member's contributions.

Specifically (marked in green are the additional writers that are listed in the repertories but not in the album's liner notes - I have gone with the liner notes in the alternate album artwork):

* Oh My God: 50% Axl; 33% divided between Paul, Sean Riggs and Tommy; 15% Dizzy; 2% Josh Freese.

* Chinese Democracy: 50% Axl; 27% divided between Josh Freese and Caram Costanzo; 21% divided between Dizzy, Paul, Robin and Tommy; 2% Eric Caudieux.

* Shackler's Revenge: 50% Axl; 20% divided between Buckethead and Brain; 25% divided between Pete Scaturro and Caram; 5% Robin.

* Better: 50% Axl; 50% Robin.

* Street Of Dreams: 63% Axl; 37% divided between Dizzy, Paul, Tommy and Robin.

* If The World: 55% Axl; 45% Pitman.

* There Was A Time: 50% Axl; 50% divided between Dizzy, Paul and Tommy.

* Catcher In The Rye: 67% Axl; 33% divided between Dizzy, Paul, Tommy and Robin.

* Scraped: 52% Axl; 24% Buckethead; 24% Caram Costanzo.

* Riad N' The Bedouins: 50% Axl; 50% divided between Dizzy, Paul, Tommy and Robin.

* Sorry: 50% Axl; 33.33% divided between Buckethead and Brain; 16.67% Pete Scaturro.

* I.R.S.: 75% Axl; 25% divided between Dizzy and Paul.

* Madagascar: 50% Axl; 50% Pitman + MLK estate. Universal database also lists a version without credit to the MLK estate in which Axl's share is 67%, so it's safe to assume that Pitman's share is 33% also in the version with the MLK speech, which leaves 17% for the MLK estate.

* This I Love: 100% Axl.

* Prostitute: 90% Axl; 10% divided between Paul and Robin.

So it seems that Axl reserved a fixed 50% for himself for lyrics, melodies, and probably also arrangement and production. Then his percentage might increase depending  on the part he had in writing the music. So, for example, it appears  that Axl wrote most of the music on Prostitute (since he has 90%) and a big part of the music on I.R.S (since he has 75%).

9. CD era songs reworked and released by the NITL lineup

As far as the "liner notes" go, there seems to be a return to the  Appetite/Lies formula (which is a common formula used by many bands):  the songs are credited collectively to "Guns N' Roses" (however, according to a press release issued by the band for Hard Skool, the song was written by Axl).

Regarding the publishing shares, although there seems to be a similar pattern with CD as far as Axl's share is concerned, the difference is that now Slash and Duff get a cut from the remaining percentage (apparently as part of an arrangement for agreeing to work on these songs). Judging from the data so far, it seems that Slash and Duff's combined share varies from song to song - there is probably a blanket deal for 15%, which may be higher or lower than that on  each song depending on how many other writers there are. It should be also noted that there may be additional factors affecting these shares; for example, Slash's and Duff's shares are all theirs, since they're their own publishers, whereas a portion of Axl's share goes to Universal, since it has his publishing (usually the publisher gets 25%-50% of the artist's share).

So in this case the shares are a bit less representative than the ones on CD about who wrote what, however they do provide an insight.

* Absurd: 49% Axl; 30% Dizzy; 21% Slash + Duff. Pitman is not listed as writer.

* Hard Skool: 76% Axl; 11.5% divided between Tommy, Robin and Paul Tobias; 1% Josh Freese; 11.5% Slash + Duff.
   So it seems that Axl wrote a big part of the music for Hard Skool besides the lyrics, similarly to I.R.S.

* Perhaps: 70% Axl; 30% divided between Slash, Duff and Paul Tobias (no information about the exact shares).

    So it appears that the song was mostly written by Axl.

* The General (listed on SESAC as The General and Monsters): 40% Axl; 60% divided between Slash, Duff, Brain, Steve Freeman and Marc Haggard (no info on the exact percentages yet).  Note: Steve "Extrakd" Freeman and Marc "Mirv" Haggard have written songs with Brain and Buckethead.

 

Edited April 7 by Blackstar
Small update regarding the provided information on SESAC

[lilacmess]

Thank you! This is fantastic!

[dallasgnrfan]

This is cool info— thank you for sharing. 

[thelostrose]

A big thumbsup! Thanks!

[Beto 22]

I think odd that Pittman has 50% of If The World and Brain and Buckethead nothing... Since they are credited as writers

 

[Blackstar]

5 minutes ago, Beto 22 said:

I think odd that Pittman has 50% of If The World and Brain and Buckethead nothing... Since they are credited as writers

They're not credited as writers on ITW.

[Voodoochild]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

- Scraped: No info (I suppose it's 50% Axl and 50% Buckethead and Brain).

And Caram Constanzo.

Again, you're amazing. MyGNR is really lucky to have you posting as a regular member. The amount of actual information and quotes you provide is truly fantastic.

 

[Beto 22]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

They're not credited as writers on ITW.

Yeah you are right... I was confused with Sorry

 

[rocknroll41]

Thanks for putting this all together!

I guess part of the lawsuit settlement with pitman must’ve involved paying him a fixed fee in exchange for removing his name from any songwriting credits. Either that or he only ever wrote the old song intro, which was removed long before he even got fired anyways.

I guess this means Slash and Duff will be getting royalties for songs they didn’t even help write. Oh, well. Whatever keeps the ship floating, I suppose!

[darkside259]

you r a legend this is so good data, thanks! 

[lewovo1100]

Amazing works, thank you for these info!

[Blackstar]

I see ASCAP has been updated for Absurd and now lists Black Frog as publisher instead of Dizzy's publisher:

https://www.ascap.com/repertory#/ace/search/workID/913016643

(I have added the screenshot to the OP).

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

Thanks for putting this all together!

I guess part of the lawsuit settlement with pitman must’ve involved paying him a fixed fee in exchange for removing his name from any songwriting credits. Either that or he only ever wrote the old song intro, which was removed long before he even got fired anyways.

I guess this means Slash and Duff will be getting royalties for songs they didn’t even help write. Oh, well. Whatever keeps the ship floating, I suppose!

Slash and Duff (and Steven) got royalties for songs written by Hollywood Rose and songs that were written by Izzy and or Axl - and Axl got royalties for Dust N' Bones, although he doesn't have a writing credit for it in the liner notes. So this isn't as strange, new or unique as it may seem. That was the band's policy for AFD, Lies and UYI. Only on CD the ones who get royalties are the actual writers as they appear by name in the liner notes.

What remains to be seen is if the Pitman case on Absurd is indicative of whether any former members (and which) will be listed as writers/royalty recipients on the "new" songs. If only current members are listed (and maybe Brain and Paul Tobias), it will mean that either there's been an arrangement for former members to get a fixed amount or that Axl controls the rights of the CD era songs and doesn't have to give credits. In this case the worst part is that we'll never know who wrote what unless they tell us - so we may never know if Hardschool is from 1996 and we'll keep on speculating for ever.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Blackstar

[DTJ80]

21 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

In this case the worst part is that we'll never know who wrote what unless they tell us - so we may never know if Hardschool is from 1996 and we'll keep on speculating for ever.

Noooooooooooooooo!

🤣

Edited September 6, 2021 by DTJ80

[Twinaleblood]

@Blackstar this is some very precious piece of info! Thanks a lot for the big effort with crosschecking etc. Maybe you have already looked into this, but any chance there are no info for Scraped because it is actually registered as Lies They Tell?

Also, I see the songs from the West Arkeen tape are listed even if never officially released (except, of course, for the songs that ended up on UYI and for Crash Diet released by Asphalt Ballet and Wildside). Wonder if other non officially released stuff is registered as well, but I assume you looked into every credit linked to Axl and everyone else.

[Coma16]

Wow great work! Amazing how involved the band was for, what many incorrectly consider as Axls solo album, Chinese Democracy 

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Twinaleblood said:

@Blackstar this is some very precious piece of info! Thanks a lot for the big effort with crosschecking etc. Maybe you have already looked into this, but any chance there are no info for Scraped because it is actually registered as Lies They Tell?

Also, I see the songs from the West Arkeen tape are listed even if never officially released (except, of course, for the songs that ended up on UYI and for Crash Diet released by Asphalt Ballet and Wildside). Wonder if other non officially released stuff is registered as well, but I assume you looked into every credit linked to Axl and everyone else.

SESAC has Sraped and lists the writers (the same ones that are in the album liner notes), but doesn't give information on shares. I couldn't find it on ASCAP - I looked for it as Lies They Tell, too, and I also looked at all Buckethead's and Brain credits that are listed there.

About the West Arkeen songs, maybe his estate registered them when that tape was sold.

Yes, I looked for unreleased songs, too (believe it or not, there are a few songs/works titled "Hard Skool" or "Hard School," but none is "our" song )

[Blackstar]

14 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Wow great work! Amazing how involved the band was for, what many incorrectly consider as Axls solo album, Chinese Democracy 

Thanks!

We already knew from the liner notes (and from leaks, interviews etc.) that the members contributed in the songwriting. I don't think that's a decisive factor on whether it was a band or solo project, though. But that's a whole different discussion, and a very tired one, as well - since Axl considered it (or wanted it to be considered) a band, so be it, case closed.

[themadcaplaughs]

I've wanted to do this for years, but was always too lazy to do it. Thanks so much for putting in the work! 

[izzyjim]

14 hours ago, Coma16 said:

Wow great work! Amazing how involved the band was for, what many incorrectly consider as Axls solo album, Chinese Democracy 

*sigh* not again...

[Sisyphus]

This is like the coolest thread ever. Major props. 

[Free Bird]

I always wanted to know what Slash's contribution was regarding the songwriting of Dust N Bones.

[Draguns]

@Blackstar This is awesome! I find this fascinating since I do work at a financial news company. Thank you for doing this. 

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, Free Bird said:

I always wanted to know what Slash's contribution was regarding the songwriting of Dust N Bones.

But (unfortunately) the PRO's data about the percentages for UYI don't represent who wrote what on each song. The information they give (with the help of what Slash wrote about it in his book) is the method they used to split the publishing royalties, which is also very interesting. They first determined the credits that we see in the albums' liner notes (=who were the writers on each song and what were their contributions, e.g. Coma might have been Axl and Slash 50% each, Axl wrote 100% of November Rain, Izzy wrote 100% of You Ain't The First, Dust N' Bones might have been something like 50-30-20 for Izzy, Slash and Duff, and so on). Then they calculated all that together and determined each one's share on the album as a whole (at least for the songs that didn't have outside writers), so Izzy's total share on the album was a percentage around 24.5%, Slash's and Duff's combined total share was 47.68% and Axl's 27-28%. And then they applied those shares to each song. So, as a result, they have shares on all songs, and when, for example, November Rain gets played on the radio or streamed, they all get their share of royalties for it. The only cases on UYI where the percentages may represent, at least partly, each one's contributions, are the songs with outside writers, like Yesterdays, etc.

The other case where the percentages partly represent who contributed what is CD, because they were calculated for each song separately. The same method seems to have been used for splitting the publishing on Snakepit 1 (I've looked at solo projects and VR, too - I'll post this information sometime later).

[Blackstar]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:52 PM, Twinaleblood said:

@Blackstar this is some very precious piece of info! Thanks a lot for the big effort with crosschecking etc. Maybe you have already looked into this, but any chance there are no info for Scraped because it is actually registered as Lies They Tell?

I realised that BMI (which collects royalties for Buckethead, Brain, Josh Freese and Caram) has its own separate site that gives more information about its own repertory than the combined ASCAP/BMI database. I found Scraped there: it's 52% Axl and 48% Buckethead and Caram. I have updated the OP (I have also updated the information for Chinese Democracy title track and Shackler's Revenge).