Was Izzy really asking for a lot of money to come back?

[Politania]

28 minutes ago, invisible_rose said:

I agree. And to be perfectly frank, I can imagine that was one of the big reasons Axl, Slash & Duff had no interest in giving Izzy a share in GNR. Axl has been dealing with that situation for years, he wasn't about to walk back in to another potential complication having got Slash & Duff back.

this

[We love Axl Rose]

45 minutes ago, invisible_rose said:

That's some ego there, Tommy. I'm sure the lure of millions and millions and millions of dollars was what pushed the reunion. Not an interchangeable bassist bailing. 

I honestly don't see any ego in anything Tommy said.

Edited January 1, 2023 by We love Axl Rose

[DoMw94]

2 hours ago, invisible_rose said:

That's some ego there, Tommy. I'm sure the lure of millions and millions and millions of dollars was what pushed the reunion. Not an interchangeable bassist bailing. 

At the end of the day, Duff and Slash merely filled empty spots in the lineup after previous members left, just like their replacements did with them the first time around.

It's well known that family issues led to Tommy's exit. Had he not gone, there's a good chance the band would've just had Slash, or maybe even Ashba – he's the one who left when he could see the writing on the wall, not Tommy – and kept on going as it was.

Slash and Duff only returned because there were openings for them, the personal relationships were stable, and it made sense. There's a good reason Guns N' Roses have never once referred to it as a 'reunion' or marketed it as one – because it isn't. Two guys filled two spots that were open, it just so happens that those two guys were in the band before.

The whole Izzy/Richard, and Steven/Frank situation backs this up. It doesn't matter who you are, Axl doesn't seem to be the kind to kick someone out of the bad just to free up a space. If he was, we'd have an Appetite or Illusions lineup right now.

[Gordon Comstock]

2 hours ago, invisible_rose said:

That's some ego there, Tommy. I'm sure the lure of millions and millions and millions of dollars was what pushed the reunion. Not an interchangeable bassist bailing. 

 

There was millions of dollars on the table for years before the reunion happened.

The huge payday from Coachella was a factor, but the bottom line is Slash and Duff came back because Axl needed replacement musicians.

[-W.A.R-]

On 12/29/2022 at 11:37 PM, DK6 said:

Is there seriously any possibility that slash would just show up with his guitar??

Always found that hilarious.

It would be a weird thing to do but Slash did do allot of weird things.

Like showing up to Axl's in the middle of the night and shitting on his bandmates to the nanny over the intercom  

Edited January 2, 2023 by -W.A.R-

[Rovim]

2 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

It would be a weird thing to do but Slash did do allot of weird things.

Like showing up to Axl's in the middle of the night and shitting on his bandmates to the nanny over the intercom  

...and then lying about it, saying he never went to Axl's house. He was drunk I think, so I tend to believe this story and what Slash said about his VR band members. I think Slash wanted back in Gn'R 4 years or so after he left anyway. Maybe even earlier.

[Karice]

Honestly, GNR should just have a "The more the merrier," mindset and everyone who wants to be in GNR can join. 😏 In my Fictional Axl Rose story, there are roughly 21 GNR Members! 😏 

[Rovim]

3 minutes ago, Karice said:

Honestly, GNR should just have a "The more the merrier," mindset and everyone who wants to be in GNR can join. 😏 In my Fictional Axl Rose story, there are roughly 21 GNR Members! 😏 

Gn'R did have a 'the more the merrier: mindset... twice. Sometimes less is more.

[kiwiguns]

10 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

There was millions of dollars on the table for years before the reunion happened.

The huge payday from Coachella was a factor, but the bottom line is Slash and Duff came back because Axl needed replacement musicians.

That doesn't appear to be the case based on body language nor the way they treat each other on stage. 

They placed repairing and rebuilding there personal relationships before filling a spot in the band or for financial gain. 

It's very clear based on there interaction on stage, they have moved on from the past and put all behind them.. 

Thats a mature approach to life and business. 

I would suspect the reason why Izzy isn't in the band, is a very simple one. 

Issues were going to be created that would place those repaired personal relationships at risk including the individual relationship each of them have with Izzy. 

I think all involved are at peace with there respected decisions and directions in life. 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by kiwiguns

[Stay.Of.Execution]

3 hours ago, Karice said:

Honestly, GNR should just have a "The more the merrier," mindset and everyone who wants to be in GNR can join. 😏 In my Fictional Axl Rose story, there are roughly 21 GNR Members! 😏 

Please tell us more about your fictional story. You haven't mentioned it quiet enough yet

Also your comment shows you have no clue what gnr is

Edited January 2, 2023 by Stay.Of.Execution

[DoMw94]

8 hours ago, kiwiguns said:

It's very clear based on there interaction on stage, they have moved on from the past and put all behind them.. 

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact they came in to replace people who left.

There's nothing unusual about being friends with your co-workers. They might all get along again, but the fact of the matter is, if Tommy, Bumblefoot, and/or Ashba hadn't left, they wouldn't be back

[Rovim]

7 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact they came in to replace people who left.

There's nothing unusual about being friends with your co-workers. They might all get along again, but the fact of the matter is, if Tommy, Bumblefoot, and/or Ashba hadn't left, they wouldn't be back

yea Slash is just a GnR co - worker. They all just co- work as employees for Axl, but everybody knows that.

[moreblack]

8 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact they came in to replace people who left.

There's nothing unusual about being friends with your co-workers. They might all get along again, but the fact of the matter is, if Tommy, Bumblefoot, and/or Ashba hadn't left, they wouldn't be back

Everything fell into place very conveniently

[Gordon Comstock]

16 hours ago, kiwiguns said:

That doesn't appear to be the case based on body language nor the way they treat each other on stage. 

They placed repairing and rebuilding there personal relationships before filling a spot in the band or for financial gain. 

It's very clear based on there interaction on stage, they have moved on from the past and put all behind them.. 

Thats a mature approach to life and business. 

I would suspect the reason why Izzy isn't in the band, is a very simple one. 

Issues were going to be created that would place those repaired personal relationships at risk including the individual relationship each of them have with Izzy. 

I think all involved are at peace with there respected decisions and directions in life.

 

Axl and Duff had been friendly for years before he officially re-joined. Axl and Slash's business relationship was thawing in the years leading up to the reunion. They all probably did want to repair relationships, but Axl waited until 2015 because that's when he needed band members.

Even in 2011 Axl had said that if there was a reunion, it would be him/Slash/Duff, Izzy or Steven wouldn't be involved.

All these managers, they know one thing. They know that they can at least ... sell a reunion tour and get their commission. It’s just a phone call. It’s a half a day’s ... work, or however long they want to keep the bidding war going. They get their commission and they don’t care if it falls on its face.

Because, really, you can get guys from the "Illusion" thing, but the only thing that would make it would be Duff and Slash, really. It’s nothing against Izzy and it’s nothing against Steven, or anything like that. Steven may want it, but these guys I’m working with right now, they work really hard and it’s hard work. I’ve toured with the other guys and I’ve also seen what they’ve done since, and I just know the difficulties.

https://www.a-4-d.com/t1320-2011-12-21-los-angeles-times-interview-with-axl

[DoMw94]

7 hours ago, Rovim said:

yea Slash is just a GnR co - worker. They all just co- work as employees for Axl, but everybody knows that.

(Sorry if I've misinterpreted your message here but...) I mean, I wouldn't read too much into what I was saying there. They literally are two human beings who work together. Yes, there's history, and a personal friendship, but they literally go to work together 🤷

 

6 hours ago, moreblack said:

Everything fell into place very conveniently

Exactly

[jamillos]

No, I don’t think we can claim we know that Slash (and Duff) are just Axl’s employees. Just because he owns the name, that doesn’t mean the business relationship can be derived this clearly from that. 
I’ve said it before: Axl needs Slash more than Slash needs Axl. Slash could release and tour his solo stuff forever and be fine with it. Again, his divorce settlement money was calculated before the reunion. He’d be off the hook. If Axl, however, lost him again, it would be the end of GNR, as there’s no way he could sell even 1/4 of the venues he does now, had he composed yet another Ashba-like incarnation – even if he sounded like 2010 again, which he doesn’t and won’t. 
They may have mended fences and go something like 50/50 or 60/40 between these two, or something very similar, plus Duff. 
In short: Slash had no reason (not even money, see above) to do anything he wouldn’t like, which includes being under some Axl’s strict helm. This is not NuGNR anymore, and these guys don't have the status of just some replaceable employees. I think they are pretty amicable, even though it’s also cold business at the same time, and yes, Axl must be the one who ultimately has the last word, obviously. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by jamillos

[action]

On 12/29/2022 at 12:31 PM, Tom2112 said:

Smells like someone who doesn't understand the music business and ownership. 

I love Izzy and what he brought to the band, but he left the fucking band, he left the fucking band, how are the other guys the bad guys?? He left the fucking band *walks out of the room*

[invisible_rose]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:44 PM, Gordon Comstock said:

 

There was millions of dollars on the table for years before the reunion happened.

The huge payday from Coachella was a factor, but the bottom line is Slash and Duff came back because Axl needed replacement musicians.

Residency at Vegas vs the 3rd highest grossing tour of all time...

[Spiritual_Chaos]

Replacing members and needing to get a new album out because dragging around a neverending Bob Dylan-esque GnR tour makes less and less sense for the world

VS

Replacing with Slash and Duff, and get back into the spotlight in an instance and not having to worry about an album

[DoMw94]

7 hours ago, jamillos said:

No, I don’t think we can claim we know that Slash (and Duff) are just Axl’s employees. Just because he owns the name, that doesn’t mean the business relationship can be derived this clearly from that. 

I don't think anyone's saying that – they're equals, I don't think anyone's assuming Axl's above them. They partners in the business anyway, aren't they?

[jamillos]

46 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

I don't think anyone's saying that – they're equals, I don't think anyone's assuming Axl's above them. They partners in the business anyway, aren't they?

Several people have been saying it throughout the forum; one of these similar posts is on the preceding page. We all see it our own way, sure, but I just disagree with this opinion. 

[Gordon Comstock]

7 hours ago, invisible_rose said:

Residency at Vegas vs the 3rd highest grossing tour of all time...

 

What's your point?

[Liva]

Based on publicly available information.

December 1984 - Guns N' Roses files a general partnership agreement containing (Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steven) as members of the partnership

August 25, 1986 - The GNR Partnership signs a recording agreement with Geffen which was amended at some point to separate AFD and Lies (Old Records) and UYI 1 and UYI 2 (Illusions LP's)

March 28, 1990 - The Partners of the GNR General Partnership entered into an agreement transforming Adler from a member of the partnership to an employee of the Partnership (Izzy was still a member, and I presume a vote took place, majority ruled Adler's fate? 4 to 1?).  

July 19, 1991 - Adler filed a lawsuit against GNR Partnership making allegations mainly that he was forced to sign document giving up his partnership interest, he was strung out when he signed and no lawyer was present on his behalf when he signed.

September 24, 1993 - Adler settled out of court on with GNR Partnership paying Adler $2.3 Million, $150,000 from Alan Niven and $50,000 from Doug Goldstein.  Parts of the court case with Axl testifying can be found on YouTube.  

Back to 1991

September 9, 1991 - Izzy resigns from the partnership just 8 days before Use Your Illusions albums are released.  I believe he was scared of litigation or upcoming litigation surrounding the riots in St. Louis among other reasons/sobriety/not wanting to tour stadiums etc.

September 10, 1991 - A new or amended General Partnership agreement is established, from this date on, profit splits were not equal.  Management decisions were made by Axl and Slash, if they could not agree, Duff would be the tie breaker.

    - The current partners (Axl/Slash/Duff) divided Net Merchandise Profits, all net NEW record profits (Illusions LP's, Spaghetti, Live Era) and Net      Touring Profits by this split:  36 1/3% to Axl: 33 1/3% to Slash: 30 1/3% to Duff.  

    - The document states "Such division will commence with the date hereof with respect to Net New Record Profits and shall commence with November 1, 1992 with respect to Net Merchandise Profits, Net Touring Profits, and Net Miscellaneous Profits."  This document was signed on November 15, 1992 by Slash...November 21, 1992 by Duff.  Axl signed it, but is not dated next to his name.   The agreement although signed in November 1992 states the "effective date" as September 10, 1991.  Its almost an agreement that was made and kinda back dated.  

    - The agreement also stipulates Old Record Profits are to be split 20% each member (Axl/Slash/Duff/Izzy/Adler)

    - Lastly the agreement states that if any member leaves they would be considered a "Terminated Member" only Axl/Slash/Duff are left as members at this point, and no matter what scenario happens, Axl has the right to use the Group Name "Guns N Roses" exclusively in the future.  GNR were on a 6 week break from the tour when this agreement was signed by Slash and Duff.  10/6/92 - Seattle, WA with next show 11/25/92 in Venezuela.  So the need to sign this otherwise Axl won't go on stage is a stretch, because it wasn't a show night or week.  Now I am sure if they didn't sign, the rest of the tour would've been cancelled, so that myth is a stretched truth in reality, not false but not as dire as Slash/Duff made it seem.   I always thought it was they signed it the day of a show/day before a show to prevent a riot.  If GNR didn't show up to Venezuela a riot probably would've ensued, but who knows

August 31, 1995 - Axl sent written notice to Slash and Duff informing them he was going to withdraw from the partnership effective December 30, 1995 and was going to form a new group using the name "Guns N' Roses"

December 31, 1995 - Slash and Duff are the only remaining members of Original GNR partnership.  Axl left the partnership, created a new one and took GNR name with him and did not include Slash or Duff in his new band.  At this point, Slash and Duff legally were not able to perform under the name Guns N' Roses even though Slash/Duff still remain the only members of Original GNR and own and control all Original GNR partnership assets.  

Oct 31, 1996 - Axl sends his infamous fax to MTV stating Slash will not be musically involved in any new GNR endeavor and has for the most part not been since April 1994 other than a 2 week period with Zakk Wylde in late fall of 1995.  Axl goes on to state "Slash has been "OFFICIALLY and LEGALLY" outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnership since December 31, 1995."  From the documents I am looking at, Axl actually left GNR, not Slash and Duff like has been said.  I guess Duff and Matt were employees of Axl's new GNR in 1996-1997 until they quit as they admitted to.  

So why all this?  Well lots of things went down, Izzy voluntarily walked away, I would assume he still gets and has always gotten his publishing and songwriting royalties from UYI, but he might have given that up with the resignation?  I am not sure.  Risk/Reward...Izzy didn't want the litigation risk and Axl risks, and he left, therefore should not be rewarded on an equal/semi equal basis that Slash and Duff are because they toured for 3 years, made the now famous music videos, put in the effort to brand the GNR name for years after Izzy left.  Not only that, Slash has kept the GNR name in the limelight with Guitar Hero, his non stop touring of his solo projects, and all his media appearances over the last 25+ years.  Axl kept the name going as well with his touring.  Izzy wrote GREAT songs/contributions, but he let Slash and Duff do the heavy lifting from Sept 1991 till present.  I would hope they offered Izzy a nice payday for the reunion, but in reality, the reunion is Axl and Slash, the casual fan doesn't know Duff/Izzy/insert drummer name here...lets be honest.  If I were Slash that went thru what he did all those years, plus getting hammered in the press for the GNR breakup, and having to answer non stop questions about it, while Izzy was in isolation for 20+ years dodging all the flack, I would probably not want to "split the loot" evenly either at that point.

 

For a deeper dive:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040727133641/http://celebrityjustice.warnerbros.com/documents/04/05/gnr.pdf

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3745-1992-10-dd-guns-n-roses-partnership-contract-memorandum-of-agreement

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/slash-quits-guns-n-roses/

http://gnrontour.com/

 

 

 

[Tom2112]

On 1/1/2023 at 5:56 PM, invisible_rose said:

I agree. And to be perfectly frank, I can imagine that was one of the big reasons Axl, Slash & Duff had no interest in giving Izzy a share in GNR. Axl has been dealing with that situation for years, he wasn't about to walk back in to another potential complication having got Slash & Duff back.

That's some ego there, Tommy. I'm sure the lure of millions and millions and millions of dollars was what pushed the reunion. Not an interchangeable bassist bailing. 

That interchangeable bassist basically held the band together for 20yrs, and outside of gnr circles he's pretty well respected including by Duff.

I don't think there was the slightest bit of ego, he said his circumstances led it to a place where there was an opening that might have set the ball rolling for future discussions about Slash.

Obviously the money was a big factor too. He's no dumby thinking he is to blame/thank for the reunion 

[EvanG]

Tommy is a good egg. He joined Soul Asylum for 7 years, while still being in GnR, because Soul Asylum's original bassplayer died from cancer and he wanted Tommy to join the band. Ok, Tommy and Soul Asylum go way back and are old friends, they're from the same town and scene, but still great of him to help them out and basically help them keep going after the death of an original member.