THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[Modano09]

25 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I really don't know what actually happened there, but according to what Axl said about it, my best guess is what I said in the previous post about Azoff maybe knowing he couldn't deliver or wasn't interested in delivering what he promised Axl so he lied to him to get the job.

I love Axl but he did have a tendency to think everyone was out to get him/everything was other people's fault. 

I just don't think Chinese Democracy era GNR/the album were ever going to be as successful as Axl wanted them to be - at least not by 2008. The album cost too much money for the record company to invest anymore in, it had become something of a running joke and the band was "not really GNR" to most people. Getting Best Buy to pick up the tab so the record company would actually release the album was in itself a minor miracle. 

Azoff's long-term goal may have been reunion and maybe he wasn't as committed to Axl's GNR as Axl was but given the band/Axl's history I just find it hard to blame someone else for the weirdness. Everything they do, to this day, has some degree of weirdness to it.

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

I love Axl but he did have a tendency to think everyone was out to get him/everything was other people's fault. 

I just don't think Chinese Democracy era GNR/the album were ever going to be as successful as Axl wanted them to be - at least not by 2008. The album cost too much money for the record company to invest anymore in, it had become something of a running joke and the band was "not really GNR" to most people. Getting Best Buy to pick up the tab so the record company would actually release the album was in itself a minor miracle. 

Azoff's long-term goal may have been reunion and maybe he wasn't as committed to Axl's GNR as Axl was but given the band/Axl's history I just find it hard to blame someone else for the weirdness. Everything they do, to this day, has some degree of weirdness to it.

maybe it wasn't weird at all and I prefer to judge it on a case by case basis, despite Axl's reputation. My opinion is that we can't just shrug off Azoff's approach here if in fact he wasn't committed to doing his job, which wasn't just getting Chinese out no matter what the cost was when it came to promotion and doing everything in his power to give Chinese every chance to fulfill its commercial potential, as low as you might think it was in 2008. 

[Modano09]

18 minutes ago, Rovim said:

maybe it wasn't weird at all and I prefer to judge it on a case by case basis, despite Axl's reputation. My opinion is that we can't just shrug off Azoff's approach here if in fact he wasn't committed to doing his job, which wasn't just getting Chinese out no matter what the cost was when it came to promotion and doing everything in his power to give Chinese every chance to fulfill its commercial potential, as low as you might think it was in 2008. 

I mean, he's not a magician. He can try to make Chinese Era GNR a thing but if the record industry and public don't want it, they don't want it. I loved that era of GNR. I liked the line up, loved the album, I didn't care it wasn't the original lineup. But I also remember that the sentiment towards GNR/Axl wasn't good. The lack of promotion could easily be because the record company got their money back, put the album out, and washed their hands of the whole 14 year saga. 

[Ninjapie24]

If the vinyl has Monsters will be the deciding factor for if I order it or not. Perhaps is a good UYI throwback and I like the song. I think The General is the weakest single other than Absurd. However, I fucking love Monsters and that inclusion with Perhaps would be well worth it for the single 

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

I mean, he's not a magician. He can try to make Chinese Era GNR a thing but if the record industry and public don't want it, they don't want it. I loved that era of GNR. I liked the line up, loved the album, I didn't care it wasn't the original lineup. But I also remember that the sentiment towards GNR/Axl wasn't good. The lack of promotion could easily be because the record company got their money back, put the album out, and washed their hands of the whole 14 year saga. 

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that if you're hired to do a job and you say you can do it and you get paid to do it, you do it. I don't believe Axl would have ever hired him if he knew where his focus was going to be (not really doing whatever he could to push Chinese) 

[Mikey Whipwreck]

1 hour ago, rumandraisin said:

Wasn't it highly likely Azoff sabotaged the release and promo in order to force Axl in to a reunion. 

I think it's more likely Azoff sabotaged the tour. Remember how they were supposed to do a massive co-headlining tour with Van Halen that never happened?

I don't think Azoff cared about the album one way or another. It was just a hurdle that had to be overcome before a reunion tour could happen.

There were probably assurances made by the label and/or Best Buy regarding promotion that never came about and Azoff probably did nothing to address that. 

[JAxlMorrison]

13 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that if you're hired to do a job and you say you can do it and you get paid to do it, you do it. I don't believe Axl would have ever hired him if he knew where his focus was going to be (not really doing whatever he could to push Chinese) 

Azoff is definitely villainized for the reunion push, and the scuttlebutt about how he was the reason Robin left the band, but he and his partner were brought in to make the ChiDem release happen, and they did. They do deserve some kudos for that. Plus didn’t the deal they made get the label and Axl all paid back?

[Modano09]

22 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that if you're hired to do a job and you say you can do it and you get paid to do it, you do it. I don't believe Axl would have ever hired him if he knew where his focus was going to be (not really doing whatever he could to push Chinese) 

If the argument is "Azoff was hired to do a job, failed to do that job" you may be right. I don't know what, specifically, he was hired to do. He managed to get the album released, which was no small feat. 

But in the music/entertainment business, if there's no interest in what you're selling there's only so much you can do. And I don't think there was that much interest in "not really Guns N'Roses" for a variety of reasons by 2008. 

[Rovim]

24 minutes ago, JAxlMorrison said:

Azoff is definitely villainized for the reunion push, and the scuttlebutt about how he was the reason Robin left the band, but he and his partner were brought in to make the ChiDem release happen, and they did. They do deserve some kudos for that. Plus didn’t the deal they made get the label and Axl all paid back?

why do you think definitely? who was Azoff's client? was it not Axl? and no, I don't think Azoff was brought in to solely just get Chinese out as fast as possible. Maybe that was the problem, that promises were made to Axl so he believed he had a beast on his side that had what it took to make the release as impactful as possible, but instead it seems Azoff had no intentions of doing that so while I'm thankful the album got released, I think Axl got stabbed in the back by Azoff. He is known to be ruthless and will do anything in his power to get what he wants. The most lucrative option by far was a reunion so he went with the shortest road that would get him there. (just a guess)

Edited November 3, 2023 by Rovim

[Mikey Whipwreck]

52 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

I love Axl but he did have a tendency to think everyone was out to get him/everything was other people's fault. 

I just don't think Chinese Democracy era GNR/the album were ever going to be as successful as Axl wanted them to be - at least not by 2008. The album cost too much money for the record company to invest anymore in, it had become something of a running joke and the band was "not really GNR" to most people. Getting Best Buy to pick up the tab so the record company would actually release the album was in itself a minor miracle. 

Azoff's long-term goal may have been reunion and maybe he wasn't as committed to Axl's GNR as Axl was but given the band/Axl's history I just find it hard to blame someone else for the weirdness. Everything they do, to this day, has some degree of weirdness to it.

If Axl had competent management from 1997-2002, there probably would have been a couple albums released by 2004 and it would have had a chance to succeed. Not on the level of the original band, but still at a high level. 

Instead you had Doug Goldstein who had no clout or ability to make things happen with the label and who kept his job by telling Axl what he wanted to hear. 

Is GNR's lack of recording output the fault of the record label and the half dozen managers they've over the past two decades? Or the artist who stopped writing and recording new music almost two decades ago and has shown close to no interest in actually releasing new music in the past 30 years?

[drlaban]

2 hours ago, Lelex95 said:

Oh my god 

maybe a studio version of Wichita lineman and slither 

its a whole new album

No thanks. 

[NachoLZ]

Absurd
Hard Skool
Perhaps
The General
Monsters

Atlas Shrugged (?)
Wichita Lineman (?)

That's an album right there

[ZoSoRose]

Who cares if they make up an album or not? Songs are songs lol

[©GnrPersia]

Look who was there at the show

[Arnuld]

2 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

In the world of music management your choice is basically Yes Men, such as Doug Goldstein and TB, or snakes, such as Merck and Azoff and basically any manager that can actually get things done at a high level. The music business is as dirty an industry as there is, you don't necessarily want your manager to be a nice person. 

They needed a heavyweight who had the clout and ability to negotiate a release strategy that was amenable to UMG and the band. Given the mess that the process had been and the amount of money that had been spent, options were limited. In the end, Azoff got it done. 

You want the Azoff type. A highly educated pit viper who knows everything, everyone, and who everyone owes a favor. CD was DOA no matter what. It was just too late. 2006 was the last point it had any chance of truly being successful. Azoff knew this but I’m sure Axl was probably in denial. Thank God he was there to negotiate that BB deal or maybe CD never happens. And he could read the tea leaves that a reunion was inevitable and the only way GNR was going to be a successful rock act again. But Axl is stubborn and it took another 8yrs for what Azoff knew was inevitable. 

[Amir]

11 minutes ago, ©GnrPersia said:

Look who was there at the show

I wonder if Freese ever heard The General before last night considering it was a Brain song?

[Rovim]

7 minutes ago, Arnuld said:

You want the Azoff type. A highly educated pit viper who knows everything, everyone, and who everyone owes a favor. CD was DOA no matter what. It was just too late. 2006 was the last point it had any chance of truly being successful. Azoff knew this but I’m sure Axl was probably in denial. Thank God he was there to negotiate that BB deal or maybe CD never happens. And he could read the tea leaves that a reunion was inevitable and the only way GNR was going to be a successful rock act again. But Axl is stubborn and it took another 8yrs for what Azoff knew was inevitable. 

I don't understand why Axl is to blame for not wanting to reunite back then, especially since he invested so much of himself in Chinese and probably wanted his work to get the chance it deserved after all this time. Regardless of the chances of Chinese commercially, it was Azoff's job to do what Axl wanted him to do, and like I've said already, if you can't do it or you have different plans, then don't pretend that your goal is to satisfy your client when it isn't.

[DoMw94]

15 minutes ago, ©GnrPersia said:

Look who was there at the show

Looks like night one based on the time of posting

[gunsfanoldie]

2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I don't understand why Axl is to blame for not wanting to reunite back then, especially since he invested so much of himself in Chinese and probably wanted his work to get the chance it deserved after all this time. Regardless of the chances of Chinese commercially, it was Azoff's job to do what Axl wanted him to do, and like I've said already, if you can't do it or you have different plans, then don't pretend that your goal is to satisfy your client when it isn't.

Sure, but have you met Irving Azoff? His goal is to make the most amount of money for his client. A GNR reunion is what would do that, especially once Axl kinda squandered opportunities for NuGuns to really be its own entity. Its not surprising to me at all that Azoff would push that. I wouldn't expect it to go over well with Axl, but I could also see Azoff thinking he could sweet talk Axl in a way that others couldn't. He's not wrong to have pushed it, any sane man would, or at least massage Axl into thinking its his own idea. But in the end it seems it was never gonna happen until Slash, unfortunately, got a divorce and kinda came crawling back with his tail between his legs. I was team Slash the whole way, but Axl won the war with the reunion. Done on his terms.

[Rovim]

11 minutes ago, gunsfanoldie said:

Sure, but have you met Irving Azoff? His goal is to make the most amount of money for his client. A GNR reunion is what would do that, especially once Axl kinda squandered opportunities for NuGuns to really be its own entity. Its not surprising to me at all that Azoff would push that. I wouldn't expect it to go over well with Axl, but I could also see Azoff thinking he could sweet talk Axl in a way that others couldn't. He's not wrong to have pushed it, any sane man would, or at least massage Axl into thinking its his own idea. But in the end it seems it was never gonna happen until Slash, unfortunately, got a divorce and kinda came crawling back with his tail between his legs. I was team Slash the whole way, but Axl won the war with the reunion. Done on his terms.

if Azoff's pitch to get hired by Axl was a reunion in its center, I don't think Axl would have went for it. Axl didn't need Azoff to make a reunion happen anyway, he needed Azoff to make the release of Chinese the biggest it can be and not just financially. 

it seems like he just used Axl to hopefully get a chunk of the reunion money. Would you be satisfied if someone you've hired to do a job for you decided what you wanted was not the right direction to go and just fed you some bullshit? I think that would have pissed me and a lot of people off.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Rovim

[AlterL]

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

if Azoff's pitch to get hired by Axl was a reunion in its center, I don't think Axl would have went for it. Axl didn't need Azoff to make a reunion happen anyway, he needed Azoff to make the release of Chinese the biggest it can be and not just financially. 

it seems like he just used Axl to hopefully get a chunk of the reunion money. Would you be satisfied if someone you've hired to do a job for you decided what you wanted was not the right direction to go and just fed you some bullshit? I think that would have pissed me and a lot of people off.

this. I understand that the reunion always was gonna bring in more money, but had Azofff done right by Axl and tried to do the job he was hired to do, the reunion could have happened down the line with him still at the helm of it, but the man got greedy and it cost us Robin being in the band. would have been funny if Slash came back only for Axl to fire Azoff anyway before the touring started.

[Barlog]

33 minutes ago, NachoLZ said:

Absurd
Hard Skool
Perhaps
The General
Monsters

Atlas Shrugged (?)
Wichita Lineman (?)

That's an album right there

Witchita is a must.

No Witchita - we riot

 

[mikeman5150]

Can anyone explain how the general is related to estranged? Sebastian said back in like 2007 that he heard the general and Axl said it wouldn’t be released until 2012, it was part of a trilogy or continuation of estranged? Maybe I’m remembering something wrong? 

[Gunner55]

1 minute ago, mikeman5150 said:

Can anyone explain how the general is related to estranged? Sebastian said back in like 2007 that he heard the general and Axl said it wouldn’t be released until 2012, it was part of a trilogy or continuation of estranged? Maybe I’m remembering something wrong? 

No he definitely said that Axl said that. I personally don't buy it, or just don't see it. But whatever, it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the song in any way. 

[Tyson]

I like what I heard and am very much looking forward to hearing the recorded version.  Though Slash's outro sounds cool, don't you think this song is missing a mid-song Slash solo?