THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Until I hear otherwise, I have no reason to believe these 4 songs...and most likely others, are nothing more than songs that weren't good enough to make CD or were sketch ideas that the band said F'it...just throw Slash and Duff on it and release it.

Alright, now you're gonna hear otherwise: All of these songs, possibly with the exception of Absurd, are good enough to replace some of the weaker songs on Chinese Democracy. More specifically: Hard Skool is better than Scraped, Perhaps is better than Rhiad, The General is better than This I Lobe and Absurd is better than If The World. Now you have reason to believe they were good enough to have been on the album. But hey, this is just my opinion and you are allowed to think differently, your highly personal opinion on the qualities of the songs don't need my or anyone else's validation. 

Furthermore, some of these songs were clearly intended to be released on the follow-up to Chinese. They weren't songs that weren't good enough, Axl had a plan for which record they would go on, and some of these at least were intended for the follow-up. The fact that Axl has decided to focus on the release of these songs, as singles, after he gave up on the follow-up, suggests how much they mean to him as songs.  

[Bitchisback]

4 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Until I hear otherwise, I have no reason to believe these 4 songs...and most likely others, are nothing more than songs that weren't good enough to make CD or were sketch ideas that the band said F'it...just throw Slash and Duff on it and release it.

 

Even the mid tier epics on UYI, like a locomotive or Breakdown have more soul than these songs....they are musical journeys.

The General is just a repetitive idea...nothing more.

The ironic thing is that thru could have fused it wirh monsters with the same orchestra and THAT would have been an epic musical journey.

Axl has had MORE THAN 20 years to tinker wirh these songs and all he has left in him is repetitive lazy lyrics and bad mixing.

I hope I'm wrong and they release something great that GNR is capable of but....the passion might not be there anymore.

 

The problem with these songs is the same problem Chinese Democracy had. There just weren't very talented song writers in the band.  Guys like bucket and Brian are insanely talented but as song writers go, what have they ever written that had a chance to make an impact in any way a GNR song has made.  

 

I like Chinese Democracy, I like the songs on it, I like a lot of the solo work these guys ha e done but there isn't much I can sit down and say wow that song is really well written.

 

Even my favorite songs on it like There Was A Time the chorus isn't very good, or Sorry the outro is not very good. And these are some of my favorites songs of all time lol. But the song writing in a song like Locomotive is just so much better.

[JimiRose]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Axl had a plan 

You lose all credibility here. Giving a guy that has released 1 original album in 33 years (and fucked that up) enough credit to suggest he had a plan, or even gave a fuck is absurd. 

[oneway23]

3 hours ago, Bitchisback said:

The problem with these songs is the same problem Chinese Democracy had. There just weren't very talented song writers in the band.  Guys like bucket and Brian are insanely talented but as song writers go, what have they ever written that had a chance to make an impact in any way a GNR song has made.  

 

I like Chinese Democracy, I like the songs on it, I like a lot of the solo work these guys ha e done but there isn't much I can sit down and say wow that song is really well written.

 

Even my favorite songs on it like There Was A Time the chorus isn't very good, or Sorry the outro is not very good. And these are some of my favorites songs of all time lol. But the song writing in a song like Locomotive is just so much better.

This is a really good point.  

As I said the other day, I adore Chinese Democracy, and, I love the band that Axl assembled to make it...I thought it was great that he put together an all-star band comprising members of bands which he loved, because, shoot...I love all those bands too!

Here's the thing...none of the people he nabbed, other than Bucket, really, were the primary songwriters for their respective bands.  NIN is pretty much all Trent, just as all of The Replacements tunes were, by & large, all written by Westerberg; sure, Tommy wrote a couple, a few outtakes, and, he had Bash & Pop and Perfect, a'course, so, he could definitely pen a tune and was probably one of the stronger writers in the band, but, still, as much as I love Thomas Eugene Stinson - and...I do! - he's probably not the guy to shoulder that burden.

I own countless records with Bucket and Brain on them, and, Bucket has definitely written a few stunners, but, he does a lot of genre exercises, too, and, you could also make the argument that he's done his best work in ensemble bands with other strong writers.  Brain is a sick beat/loop maker, but, he wasn't really a writer during his time in Primus or Praxis.  Freeze has written a few cool tunes, but, he's a studio guy.  Pitman....is Pitman?

Pretty harsh reality there, but, it's a fair post.

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, JimiRose said:

You lose all credibility here. Giving a guy that has released 1 original album in 33 years (and fucked that up) enough credit to suggest he had a plan, or even gave a fuck is absurd. 

He had a plan, he failed to deliver. Is that so hard to fathom? He even told us his plan. He clearly failed to follow through. Therein lies his problem. 

[Its Tino]

Did I just read “mid tier epic”?

[Rovim]

5 hours ago, Bitchisback said:

The problem with these songs is the same problem Chinese Democracy had. There just weren't very talented song writers in the band.  Guys like bucket and Brian are insanely talented but as song writers go, what have they ever written that had a chance to make an impact in any way a GNR song has made.  

 

I like Chinese Democracy, I like the songs on it, I like a lot of the solo work these guys ha e done but there isn't much I can sit down and say wow that song is really well written.

 

Even my favorite songs on it like There Was A Time the chorus isn't very good, or Sorry the outro is not very good. And these are some of my favorites songs of all time lol. But the song writing in a song like Locomotive is just so much better.

I think it was greater than the sum of its parts thing: every member contributed something important but that wasn't even the point, since it was Axl's baby so it's also how he combined and manipulated the musical ideas to complete the album. Maybe Better is a good example of what happens when you give Axl an idea to work on and everything clicks. 

I also feel that a big part of the album's charm, at least for me, is that it gives the listener a chance to experience what's it like to give someone as unique and talented as Axl to put his artistic touch on ideas he really liked that came from the minds of musicians with different musical styles.

Axl said he thought that most fans would at least like a few songs from Chinese and this is kinda what happened imo and the approach was to cast a wider net and try and introduce a few new things at least for Gn'R. If this was really the case, then hiring musicians from bands Axl liked and trying to combine their abilities is at least an interesting approach.

the result for me was like a great Axl Rose solo album which reflected his Queen approach of more is more without constraints and good shit did come out of it imo. Songs that added something to come back to when I want to listen to material which Axl is a part of.

 

[colonizedmind]

Soo many varying opinions on recent releases...One thing should be universal...getting all of these tracks out of the system is a good thing....as eventually they'll be nothing feasible left and the only choice will be, record something new or retire. With Axl seemingly happy to record new vocals as recently as 6 months ago, perhaps it can happen, perhaps a covers EP is a good first step back into that realm and look to work with good writers if that's an issue, I.E Izzy (I know the difficulties!) And others, Axl did write with his friends quite a bit that weren't part of GNR officially....so we shouldn't dismiss writing with others and Slash brings a fucking epic book of contacts, so, we need to let the expectation of the ideal not get in the way of anything/something happening...and if it's 2nd best, at this point, I'm quite ok with that...

This discography can't end as it is...it's gotta be the smallest ever for a band of this stature...over a career.

Edited December 16, 2023 by colonizedmind

[bmus1]

I wonder if the leaked General/Monsters was some sort of final proof for the Beltrami camp. That use case might make sense to consolidate it into one file? But that thinking makes Seven/Thyme unlikely anytime soon.

[axlweave]

The General isn’t bad it just didn’t live up to the hype one poster said it is better than This I Love I disagree This I Love is one of the most emotional songs I ever listened to I know some don’t like it but I do aka different strokes for different folks 

[colonizedmind]

47 minutes ago, bmus1 said:

I wonder if the leaked General/Monsters was some sort of final proof for the Beltrami camp. That use case might make sense to consolidate it into one file? But that thinking makes Seven/Thyme unlikely anytime soon.

And the soundwriting credits being The General And Monsters? Reason for that? Now we know the song name didn't change, it can only be because they do register EP's or singles with B-sides like that sometimes...otherwise why the hell was it like that? Still.

[DeNfr]

[drlaban]

2 hours ago, colonizedmind said:

And the soundwriting credits being The General And Monsters? Reason for that? Now we know the song name didn't change, it can only be because they do register EP's or singles with B-sides like that sometimes...otherwise why the hell was it like that? Still.

Planned hidden track and then plans changed. Perhaps. 

[JAxlMorrison]

17 hours ago, Cosmo said:

Herd behaviour. 

Exactly. And all this “well it only has this many views on YT!” Who cares? Are you getting paid per view? Are you mad your band isn’t pulling interest like Taylor Swift? Who cares who’s viewing what? Only thing that matters is if you enjoy it. And if you don’t? Don’t listen to it again. Wait for the next one. Or don’t 🤷‍♂️ 

[timoteo]

Clipping = drum sound effect 

 

it’s really obvious

[evilfacelessturtle]

17 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

The General is better than This I Love and Absurd is better than If The World.

Now that is absurd.

TIL has been a low key hit. It's the highest streamed song off CD on Spotify by a mile. Over 65 million streams (Better has over 34 million, the title track has over 29 million). That makes it the 18th most popular song in their entire catalog.

I will also never understand the hate for If The World in this forum. That was one of the tracks that drew me in to CD. It's epic and funky and just oozes cool. Never mind Axl's incredible vocal performance on it.

[Gordon Comstock]

1 minute ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Now that is absurd.

TIL has been a low key hit. It's the highest streamed song off CD on Spotify by a mile. Over 65 million streams (Better has over 34 million, the title track has over 29 million). That makes it the 18th most popular song in their entire catalog.

I will also never understand the hate for If The World in this forum. That was one of the tracks that drew me in to CD. It's epic and funky and just oozes cool. Never mind Axl's incredible vocal performance on it.

 

Seriously, I'm not a big fan of the album version of TIL, but it's better than The General in every way - instrumentally, atmospherically, and that solo is one of the best in their catalogue.

I always liked ITW too, and it was a great live song.

 

[ZoSoRose]

26 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

Seriously, I'm not a big fan of the album version of TIL, but it's better than The General in every way - instrumentally, atmospherically, and that solo is one of the best in their catalogue.

I always liked ITW too, and it was a great live song.

 

ITW rules live

[Gordon Comstock]

24 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

ITW rules live

 

I can see why it was only in the set for like 6 months, by the SA shows Axl was basically channelling his 91 voice, sounding like a chainsaw.

It was great though, definitely a highlight of the CD songs. I'm glad I got to see them play it, and glad we've got at least one high-quality recording of it.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:23 AM, oneway23 said:

Hardly.  I feel like it was better received when it was still assumed to be a piece of a larger whole with Monsters as a single, epic song.  

It doesn't stand on its own nearly as well, imo.

 

Can't you just listen to the two songs back to back as a single song if that's how you prefer it? I don't understand the disappointment that it's a separate song when there is such an obvious solution to it.

[SoulMonster]

5 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Now that is absurd.

TIL has been a low key hit. It's the highest streamed song off CD on Spotify by a mile. Over 65 million streams (Better has over 34 million, the title track has over 29 million). That makes it the 18th most popular song in their entire catalog.

I will also never understand the hate for If The World in this forum. That was one of the tracks that drew me in to CD. It's epic and funky and just oozes cool. Never mind Axl's incredible vocal performance on it.

As I said, "Hey, this is just my opinion." 

[Route66]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:38 PM, Blackstar said:

What do you mean he was removed? I guess he's not credited because he didn't co-write it.

He wrote the song

On 12/8/2023 at 12:37 AM, WhazUp said:

I have got some sweet open-back cans and closed-back, as well as a modestly decent monitor setup for my own mixing projects, this official release is the same mix as the leak

Then you need better cans hunny

On 12/8/2023 at 12:18 AM, WhazUp said:

Is the question about the fidelity being better, or it being the same mix like you originally asserted? 

 

If you have good gear you can hear the better bits of sound. However, I think this could have been better by far.

[Route66]

On 12/8/2023 at 12:15 AM, oneway23 said:

I'll tell you what: Talk to me about the mix, give me details, elaborate on your argument..a few time codes, maybe?  Points of reference where you've noted changes so that I can see where you're coming from.

I am a pro musician and studio engineer. I worked with Guns. It's not the best but that is how Axl wanted it

On 12/8/2023 at 12:04 AM, oneway23 said:

I really don't believe that it is...

Clearer?  Yes

Higher quality?  Yes

A different mix would mean instrumental parts re-inserted which weren't present or audible before, possibly extended pieces or different takes selected, a different balance between where each instrument sits within the frequency spectrum...all tell-tale signs of a re-mix, a la Rush's Vapor Trails or Pearl Jam's Ten from 2009.

This is really just the same thing we had, in shaper focus.

you got it!

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Route66 said:

He wrote the song

He didn't. Brain wrote the instrumental (we are talking about The General, right?)

[WhazUp]

3 hours ago, Route66 said:

I am a pro musician and studio engineer. I worked with Guns. It's not the best but that is how Axl wanted it

Lol sure

Edited December 17, 2023 by WhazUp